Boys left behind at school while girls get trip

[Quickchat1]

Recently my sons class went on an educational trip to a local university. But only the girls. The boys were left behind with a cover teacher listening to music and generally doing very little. My son is GCSE year and would have benefited from a computing and science event. No it was only for the girls with no mention of anything for the boys. I understand this was a STEM event for girls only but if there was a STEM event for boys only there would be uproar! AIBU?

So it is prohibitively hard to get to uni which puts people off and at the same time it is pushed too heavily, too many people are going and financially it’s not worth it?

I don't think the application process is prohibitive but certainly the upfront and on going costs are prohibitive. What's worse is that many of these costs are somewhat hidden until part way through the first year when students start looking for private accommodation for their 2nd year - that's when they need to find deposits, agents fees, guarantors etc. My children both know of a fair few students who dropped out at this point but only after incurring a year's worth of tuition and living cost loans with nothing to show for it, because they just could not afford it.

University websites, open days, UCAS, student room......
Teachers and advisers do play a part but this is where they are getting their information from.

Interesting that you say that there is a lack of information where all the research says there is too much information out there. A careers adviser's job is to help people navigate and interpret that information.

Nowhere, apart from student room, have I seen this discussed.

And where is the research that says there is too much information available to students, and their parents who have to finance and guarantee payments, regarding the hidden costs?

Bit you did see it discussed.... so you did find the information?

There is some research by the careers and enterprise company on provision of information. I'm out so don't have the exact reference.

As far as I’m aware, all universities show examples of living costs in the area somewhere in their website. Search living costs or budgeting, etc.

I agree wholeheartedly that costs are prohibitive. People seem to get into the first year thinking the student finance loan and a little job on the side will get them through... it is more like you have to fork out a good few thousands a year just to keep them out of hardship.

Bit you did see it discussed.... so you did find the information?
No I've seen it discussed since. Since we already experienced it and I was left thinking "what the hell?" You have to know to look for it which if you have no experience of the process then how do you know to look, or indeed what to look for?

As far as I’m aware, all universities show examples of living costs in the area somewhere in their website. Search living costs or budgeting, etc.

I've seen plenty of examples of how much it costs to live on campus, so a weekly breakdown of rent, food etc but I've not seen the "hidden costs" so eg letting agents fees, deposits, utility companies charging 12 months (or 18 months for broadband) when students typically need 9 or 10 months...

And yes, to your last paragraph.

I get the feeling that you expected everything to be handed to you and you seem upset that you had to do a significant amount of research yourself. Nothing anyone says will be good enough.

Since most universities only guarantee university accommodation to Y1s, examples of private renting costs are often quoted... but you are right, they quote the rent costs, but not all the required extras you have to pay for.

You know I remember living in a slug-infested dump with nothing to eat but beans on toast, while working through the summer in my uni town because I was still paying for my accommodation.

And we didn’t even have google to explain this stuff to us, we just got on with it.

I suppose we did have The Young Ones to demonstrate that student living might be a bit below the standard we were used to at home.

I'm annoyed that these things aren't explained to students yes. Many parents aren't able or interested enough to do research - is it just tough to those students? Considering how the aim is to increase access for students from under privileged backgrounds you would think a professional whose job it is to do just that might have a modicum of sympathy huh?

noblegiraffe

My kids aren't living in Buckingham Palace. Their student houses are grim - mould, mice. How do they work in their uni town over the summer with nowhere to live, given that leases run from September until June? And I'm guessing you went on a full grant and not a loan linked to your parents income which assumes that they will top up to the maximum loan amount regardless of their outgoings or other dependents?

I think they are, but as many parents studied when education was free and student loans were enough, they had not noticed how bad things have become or... are willing to accept them.

In all honesty, I think we trust our government more than we should. They have made university unaffordable for the average parent we are still viting for them thinking they know what they are doing.

You're just being deliberately goady now. What makes you think there is no empathy ( not sympathy - that's different)

Most people who enter that profession do it because they want to help people. They're good people who go above and beyond. But there is a limit to what people can do and offer - people's capacity isn't unlimited. At some point students and their parents have to take some responsibility.

I suspect there is no pleasing you though.

given that leases run from September until June?

So you’re moaning because your kids pay for 9 months instead of 12 months when my problem was I had to pay for 12 months and not move back home over the summer to save money? I suspect you’d moan either way.

The problem with landlords and deposits and so on isn’t about university study, it’s about moving out of your parents’ house. Kids who don’t go to uni face those difficulties too. Look at the news about increasing numbers of young people are still living at home throughout their 20s.

NotSureThisIsWhatIWant

Absolutely. I also think a lot is assumed about parents. Not all parents are engaged, interested or able to do the vast amounts of research required. I have never rented a house. I had no idea what the process entailed and so it was a huge learning curve when we embarked on it.

I think many professionals are assuming that parents know about this, because they know. But you don't know what you don't know. Yes, once you are faced with a problem you can research solutions (if you are able to) but how do you pre-empt these problems if you have no experience of it?

I've just had a quick glance at the further education board on here. Plenty of questions about where students can go for careers advice, how to apply to uni, differences in courses etc which is odd given the assertion here of careers guidance being given in schools. It seems that whatever is available isn't meeting the need.

annoyed that these things aren't explained to students

I bet there’s university support service workers banging their heads on desks right now.

I'm banging my head on a desk right now!
Fed up of repeating myself. I'm out of this conversation now.
Have a good evening ladies.

So you’re moaning because your kids pay for 9 months instead of 12 months when my problem was I had to pay for 12 months and not move back home over the summer to save money? I suspect you’d moan either way.

No I am saying that options for students are very limited. They rent houses for 9 months. That means if they get a term time job then they have to leave over the sumner months which causes problems.

And it is very much a student problem. I don't know of any 18 year olds that have moved out of home unless to go to university.

What neither of you are realising is that these financial barriers are huge for students whose parents are on low to middle incomes. I don't understand the point of encouraging students from certain under represented groups to go to university when you don't help them to realise the very real difficulties of doing so and possibly explore better options for them.

How can it be right that parents have to get into debt to support their children through university? At the very least that information should be made available early on in the process. But it won't be because it doesn't serve universities or the government if less students go to university does it?

And my kids don't pay 9 months rent. They pay 9 months full rent and 3 months half rent with no access to the property for those 3 months so the worst of both worlds really.

I organise events at a university and when we invite parents in, we always ensure we have a student financial advisor for parents to ask whatever they want. More often than not, the woman goes back to her office without anyone asking her a question.

I’m not sure if the “goady” comment is aimed at me, but just in case it is... Everytime I talk about this, people assume I’m crying wolf, because they went to university and managed with a few hours of work on the side. It is no longer like that. I’m horrified at what is happen but then I only know about it because I was processing hardship loans for students for a while (and loosing sleep about this ever since...)

NotSureThisIsWhatIWant

I do think that people just aren't aware of the financial implications until much later in the process. If students and parents knew by open days I would imagine many would want to speak to the advisor but it seems so straight forward when they are applying, it's not until much later on that the full extent of parental support becomes apparent.

I am glad that you see this from the other side. The pressure that it's put myself and my husband under is awful. Even now we are having to support our son through his NQT year because he's not earning enough to live on yet and that coupled with a daughter at uni and needing financial support from us too is so difficult.

It makes me so angry when these difficulties are just dismissed. It's all well and good taking students to an open day but what practical help is there to convert an interest in going into a reality? That seems to depend on having parents able and willing to do it.

I have never rented a house. I had no idea what the process entailed and so it was a huge learning curve when we embarked on it.

Your children are adults, and it’s entirely possible that you’re not seeing the support offered, because it’s not aimed at you, it’s aimed at the students.

But students are relying on parents funding housing so one would hope parents would be informed and involved.😬

I’ll have 3 starting in the space of 2 years. Kind of hope I am involved and advised as I’m going to be the one eating beans for a very long time if we can scrape the money together.

Weetabixandshreddies how is your son not earning enough to live on in his NQT year? Does he have unrealistic expectations about living very close to an inner London school or an unwillingness to rent a room? NQTs earn modestly but he should be on over 20k and able to afford a room without hand outs.

That comment suggests some unrealistic expectations. How on earth have you never rented a house? We're you given one or a fat deposit? Did you live with parents rent free til you had a house deposit saved? Those are unusual and privileged scenarios - most people rent for a period at least.

Most young adults move out of the parental home and have to rent at first no matter whether they go to university. It's easier nowadays with the option to look up how to do anything and everything on the internet! Most people rent without some outside force coaching them through the process. Most competent adults can work out how, and do so. It's a life stage almost ever adult capable of independent living manages to negotiate, not just university students.

I agree far fewer school leavers should be pushed fairly indiscriminately towards university by schools who want to claim over x% of their pupils go on to university, it isn't the right path for most 18 year olds IMO and far too many who would be better doing vocational training go to university without engaging any critical thinking skills around the question of why they are going (somewhat ironically). However I also think there are some unrealistic expectations of everything on a plate and a lot of entrenched feelings of entitlement to unrealistic levels of hand holding going on!

Weetabix
What neither of you are realising is that these financial barriers are huge for students whose parents are on low to middle incomes. I don't understand the point of encouraging students from certain under represented groups to go to university when you don't help them to realise the very real difficulties of doing so and possibly explore better options for them...

...It makes me so angry when these difficulties are just dismissed. It's all well and good taking students to an open day but what practical help is there to convert an interest in going into a reality? That seems to depend on having parents able and willing to do it.

I agree with the observation that the barriers are huge, and that many universities and prospective students and their families do not understand them. It requires a considerable amount of cultural capital to navigate the process or a huge amount of naivete to even contemplate it.

Only in the last few years have American universities woken up to the fact that students can't afford even application fees to many universities, let alone the cost of traveling from home schlepping the necessary gear (not affordable for many), and then home again for Thanksgiving, back again, home for Christmas, back again, home for Spring break, back again, home for the summer... That is before you even think about books, toiletries, paper.

I did an incredible amount of homework and so did my DD1 before taking the plunge. I am Irish, living in the US, and exH's parents had been able to afford to send all their offspring to universities without relying on financial aid or scholarships or help of any kind. exFIL was extremely well off. So exH had no clue about applying for scholarships or any other financial aid. Plus he looked down his nose at people who sought help or received it. He was, in short, no help at all.

The DCs' high school offered talks for parents on the process of applying to university and also the financial aspects of going, including step by step instructions for the FAFSA and CSS Profile, the two major American financial aid forms that you need to complete. The talks were incredibly useful. The speakers were counselors from the high school and financial aid officers from leading local universities. The best one was from the head of financial aid at Notre Dame University. I went every year so my information was always current, and I scoured the internet too. In addition to all of this, the high school counselors helped with university selection and finding fee waivers for students for AP exams and for applications. There was also a scholarship department consisting of one woman who coached students with applications for scholarships offered by local organisations as well as national and regional scholarships, niche scholarships, etc.

My three DDs who have so far gone to university, and my DS, qualified for pretty much a full ride (tuition and room and board paid/waived by their universities) and all worked part time jobs while studying because I could not afford to send them a penny for 'walking around money' or even their transport to and from home.

DD1 sublet a room in an apartment near her university two summers in a row so that she could keep the job she had in term time. The first summer there was the summer she learned to cook and developed a liking for lentils.