Boys left behind at school while girls get trip

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Recently my sons class went on an educational trip to a local university. But only the girls. The boys were left behind with a cover teacher listening to music and generally doing very little. My son is GCSE year and would have benefited from a computing and science event. No it was only for the girls with no mention of anything for the boys. I understand this was a STEM event for girls only but if there was a STEM event for boys only there would be uproar! AIBU?

I just googled ‘no guarantor for student accommodation help’ and found loads of advice and more than one solution.

I helped a disabled FSM student apply for uni last year and was impressed at the range of bursaries and support available. His chosen uni was very helpful and willing to to make allowances for him that I wouldn’t have thought possible.

What he needed from me was someone to talk through it, help him draft emails and look over his applications. But he was perfectly capable of finding out about stuff himself.

Weetabix I don't know how many different ways to say this that is not career guidance

It doesn't mean it isn't important but it's the responsibility of universities to provide that information - which they do.

Careers advisers can signpost to this information but as it's varies so much from institution to institution and between individuals. Careers advisers will identify if a student needs additional support but it's about empowering clients not doing everything for them.

I meant to add that as it varies so much between institutions and individuals you need to refer clients to appropriate experts.

Out of interest, how many girls who attend girls schools then go on to study for a career in STEM?

I don't know the figures off-hand, but girls are more likely to do STEM A-levels at all-all-girls schools than at mixed schools, so they're going to be more qualified to enter STEM careers.

A lot of the women on Radio 4''s the Life Scientific appear to have been to all-girls schools, but I don't know if this is something I am more likely to notice because of having been to a single-sex school myself, or if the sort of people they interview are likely to be sufficiently advanced in their careers that they're more likely to have been through the grammar school system which was usually singe-sex schools.

Doh !!!! Yabu 😂

There was a programme earlier this week, must have been Wednesday, on R4, about the (complete lack of) support available to young people in care when they leave care at 18. It touched on university (very low rates of people leaving care go to uni,) but talked a lot about the challenges of renting, getting utilities account's and so on, when you've no guarantor, no credit history and no experience. They're really big barriers to independence.

EBear you're absolutely right. One of the biggest issues is year round accommodation as traditionally universities only offered accommodation for around 40 weeks a year.

Universities have people in place to support looked after people but i'd always recommend the young person speak to the universities as the level of support can vary greatly.

When ds1 was at school, the college arranged a trip where the whole class got to participate in traditional female subjects (such as hairdressing) and also traditional male subjects (such as construction). The day was much more about breaking down gender stereotypes, and actually worked really well. I get what OP’s school was trying to do, but as others have said, a corresponding visit for the boys (eg to the uni’s school of nursing) would have been a good idea.

@EBearhug there has been anecdotal evidence for decades that girls who go to single sex schools - and this includes comps as there have been no grammar schools in some areas since the 70s - are more likely to do STEM subjects to higher level.

Oh and @Weetabixandshreddies the majority of my family under 28 who are non-white and have gone to state schools have had careers events that have encouraged them into STEM subjects regardless of their gender. With my family over 28 (which includes me) whether we got careers guidance was hit and miss, plus in some cases the guidance given for those over 45 was classist, sexist and racist.

I just googled ‘no guarantor for student accommodation help’ and found loads of advice and more than one solution.

Really? Only when I googled the advice was "ask the uni as they may be able to help" or a private guarantor company - prices start at £300 and they still require a co signer who will be liable to pay the rent if the student doesn't.

Students should be made much aware of these hidden costs before they get anywhere near applying for university and other options explained to them. You can protest as much as you like but I do think that is the responsibility of anyone discussing post 16 options with students.

And if students are so independent why do parents have to be involved in applying for student finance? Clearly the government doesn't consider them independent enough to manage without parental financial support.

Where did I say it wouldn't be discussed? I think I was clear in saying it would be but it would probably be more appropriate for the to refer them to specialist advisers at some point.

I know exactly what the job of a careers adviser entails and what it doesn't.
I also know there are issues but expecting careers advisers to know and be able to offer up to date advice and guidance on absolutely everything doesn't work. They tried it nearly 20 years ago and it was an unmitigated disaster and is one of the reasons your children didn't get good careers education and guidance.

there has been anecdotal evidence for decades that girls who go to single sex schools - and this includes comps as there have been no grammar schools in some areas since the 70s - are more likely to do STEM subjects to higher level.

I know, but I'd not be surprised if someone hasn't researched the actual figures somewhere, rather than relying on anecdotal evidence.

CostanzaG

I know exactly how it works, I've seen it from the government for years. Give the young person all of the positives and none of the negatives and then leave them to sink or swim.

You might call it anecdotal but I have seen it many times. I'm also seeing the same issues crop up from posts on a facebook page for parents of prospective students - so many are unprepared for the process.

You might think that you are doing your job by directing students towards university but I know that many students drop out or regret their choice because they didn't have all of the relevant information before they made their choice.

I'm not a careers adviser any more. I no longer work in widening participation or student recruitment. I'm not directing young people anyway.

I am a senior academic at university who teaches and trains careers advisers and career leaders. I'm not using anecdotal information. I've got the benefit of years and years of specialist research and professional practice in career guidance. I've a PhD which looked at fair access to HE. I know this stuff inside out and I'm so passionate about it I could talk for days.

If you aren't happy with how it's done in your children's schools then do something about it. As a governor you have that power.

*anywhere

No longer a governor - I resigned last year. I didn't say you were talking anecdotally, I said you might well say that my experiences are anecdotal.

And you may have years of professional experience but have you ever experienced it from the other side? If provision, sign posting and assistance from universities is so abundant why are so many students (and their parents) struggling with this?

Students from underrepresented groups aren't going to overcome difficulties on the back of a couple of targeted visits to university. There are much bigger barriers for them to overcome and unless they are addressed the rest is just lip service.

If provision, sign posting and assistance from universities is so abundant why are so many students (and their parents) struggling with this?

Because it’s a really complicated process? I’m not sure anyone finds it easy to apply for university, even in the most straightforward of cases.

I worked in schools for years before moving to HE so yes I've seen it from other perspectives. Also used to do a lot of work with parents. Also, I'm a first generation student and still the only person in my family to go to uni. I grew up in one of the most deprived areas of the UK. I understand the issues both personally and professionally.

Your last paragraph - pretty much the topic of my PhD and my particular research area. So yes, I get it. I'm quite happy to discuss factors linked to disadvantage if you like? Many if them have been mentioned on this thread but I have some particular theories I like draw upon - specifically around social and cultural capital.

As I have said many, many times in this thread these events are part of a wider programme of careers education.

Because it’s a really complicated process? I’m not sure anyone finds it easy to apply for university, even in the most straightforward of cases.

Not just the application process but on going.

As I have said many, many times in this thread these events are part of a wider programme of careers education.

Yes you have. But from what young people have said to me, there appears to be huge inconsistencies in the standard of careers guidance offered - and again, only the positives appear to be presented to them.

I look at my children and the debt that they, and we, have taken on and seriously question whether that was the right course. But it was so heavily pushed by their sixth form providers and the government that they never doubted it was the right thing to do - that view has now changed.

Yes Weetabix, it’s really complicated to go to uni. That’s why people struggle. Because it’s a difficult thing to do. Saying ‘if unis put out this info, why do people still find it hard?’ can be answered by ‘because it is hard.’

It's not just hard - it's prohibitive.

I've also said that careers education and guidance can be poor in some areas/schools. I'm just repeating myself now.

Yes it's also been acknowledged that there was too much emphasis on HE which is being addressed.

And yes the application process is complicated and there is support for that too......I'm not sure what else I can say??

So it is prohibitively hard to get to uni which puts people off and at the same time it is pushed too heavily, too many people are going and financially it’s not worth it?

And where do unis put out this information?

Show me where universities tell students that they will have to find guarantors for accommodation and what that entails and why, if your parents earn under a certain amount, don't have the correct documentation, aren't supportive, you won't be able to secure housing for the 2nd or 3rd year. Where does it tell you how much it will cost to put deposits down, or arrange utilities or that broadband contracts run for 12 if not 18 months when you only need 9 months as a student and so must find the extra money for those? Or how you need to get a job in order to afford to be at uni (despite everyone telling you that you shouldn't let money put you off because you don't pay your loan back until you are earning) yet your housing is only for 9 months of the year so you risk losing your job, that you need?

School leavers don't know any of this because it is outside their experience. Yes, they soon find out about it but once they are at uni and it's too late. I went to many university open days with my children and nowhere were any of these practicalities mentioned. We were clued up by the time our 2nd child went and our friends and family learnt from the experience of our 1st child. We were also able to help the housemates of our youngest child too because they didn't understand either.

It's like a closely guarded secret that you can only learn once you are in the thick of it. I think the fear is that if students knew then many would choose alternative routes which obviously universities don't want. That's why independent professionals should be informing young people.

For students with parents who can afford it, and are willing to support, it doesn't matter because the financial help is there but for many other students these barriers might well be prohibitive. How does that achieve the objective of encouraging under represented groups?

Encourage more girls into STEM courses - do you help them differentiate between good courses that will help them into a career and those with a lesser reputation? Do you explain that they may well need a masters in order to be fully qualified? Are they funded or do the students have to self fund? Or are these points outside of careers guidance also?