AIBU to remind everyone that the MMR vaccine does NOT cause autism?

[TheHodgeoftheHedge]

Seeing as this worry comes up so many times on MN and in wider life, I feel obliged to post this and remind everyone that MMR has not link to autism whatsoever, as yet another HUGE study has found.

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/mmr-vaccine-autism-antivax-measles-study-andrew-wakefield-a8808086.html

Thanks.

Right....and the fact he claims to have been visited by aliens? Is that not a clue that the guy is an absolute crank?

‘Adding another reason for doctors to avoid the overuse of antibiotics, new research shows that a reduction in the variety of microbes in the gut interferes with the immune system's ability to fight off disease’

Pretty self explanatory
Antibiotics= reduction in gut biome= interferes with ability to fight off disease = opportunistic infection more likely= what I said

Anyway I have a life and this is a bit pointless .... I hope your curiosity has been peaked slightly... but if not, just relieved you’re not taking AZT

He is still a brilliant biochemist and his opinion on HIV is therefore very valid to me

*Iknow exactly what the hypothesis for HIV is thanks and exactly what it’s claimed to do... I just don’t believe it.

I’m assuming you’re reasonably fit, don’t engage in the fast line gay lifestyle and were unfortunate enough to be given a meaningless HIV test after becoming unwell (as people do from time to time) for which you tested positive for some random proteins that are supposed to be but not exclusively related to HIV?*

Are you saying HIV as a virus doesnt’t exist? Are you also saying I have been diagnosed wrongly? I’m actually not sure you do know what HIV does to the immune system when untreated. Or do you prefer to think it’s not real? Takes me back to the question...in your,ind, should I stop my meds??.

Hope, never been gay, though don’t knock those that are. Not sure what you mean by lifestyle? AFAIK not all gay folk shag around. Also, not sure you know, but 47% of new diagnoses are hetero in the U.K. latest (3017) stats here www.tht.org.uk/hiv-and-sexual-health/about-hiv/hiv-statistics It is not solely a gay thing!

Oh yes, I was certainly unwell, though it was actually a dry fanjo a few months later that lead me to get tested (unrelated Atrophic Vaginitis)

What proteins are you referring to? Genuinely interested. Any online info?

Where as I'm not convinced by someone who believes in aliens and astrology.

HIVpos I genuinely want to engage with you but not if you will continually misinterpret my posts.. being gay doesn’t suppress the immune system ..obviously l never said that... but what is termed the fast lane lifestyle certainly does ...as I clearly stated

I’m saying that IF it exists it’s a harmless passenger virus

The two tests in regular use test for antibodies for particular proteins ...proteins that are associated with HIV, BUT not exclusive to it i.e... these proteins occur in most people in differing numbers at varying times ... For instance simply being pregnant can lead to a false positive

Despite what you might think I know a lot about the arguments on both sides

This is a link to the house of numbers channel.. the actual documentary on it isn’t there but you can find it easily elsewhere. The channel has the extended interviews. I suggest you listen to them. www.youtube.com/user/houseofnumbers

I wouldn’t advise you to do anything ...obviously .... but if it were me there’s no way for a second I would be taking the antiviral medication you’re taking.

Completely disagree with the idea that you have to just eventually agree with experts and not question anything. The SIDS / baby sleeping on front or back is a good example. My mum's generation were told they must put a baby to sleep on it's front. All the experts agreed. A lone doctor began studying the high rate of SIDS in the U.K. in relation to other developed countries and concluded it was linked to babies going to sleep on their front. His research was largely ignored and tragically it took a high profile cot death for the government and Health Secretary to finally look at his findings. The 'experts' telling parents to put their babies on their front to sleep were wrong. Once official advice changed cot deaths plummeted from 1500 a year in the 1980s to 200.

I'm not in anyway suggesting the prevailing advice around getting your children vaccinated should be ignored. I just don't believe anyone is obliged to unquestionably follow expert opinion without even being allowed to query it.

Cath, I take every one of your posts how you write them, so there is absolutely no misunderstanding - You explicitly mentioned the “fast line gay lifestyle” ie suggesting that all gays live a certain (risky way), and also inferring they would be at more risk (which actually they are but not for the reason you think). I responded questioning the relevance...and proved it was not relevant with a source.

When one reads something online, it really depends on who has written it and when. Here is another article on Kary Mullis for balance - there are links to other of his articles on there too...enjoy www.theguardian.com/science/grrlscientist/2012/oct/12/nobel-prize-quackpottery-chemistry

Sorry Cath, I really can’t take you seriously, which is why I’m taking the piss. Your research is badly done from old articles and half/misinformed opinions. You really just believe what you want to believe without learning the facts from reliable sources and current thinking. You cannot give up to date links - I can. I asked you about the protein....where is the link for further info????

The baby (born of an HIV+ mum I know) who was on AZT post birth is doing absolutely fine btw, just like many before him. 😀

I have repeatedly said that your links are old and no longer true...so totally irrelevant to today’s thinking. I even picked out a couple of things said in the interviews from your above link and provided proof. Why do you continually try to push it?

Most tellingly, I have now asked you 3 times if you think I should stop taking my meds. So ”put your money where your mouth is” figuratively speaking. Your last post stated you think “if it exists, it is a harmless passenger virus” .So.....you really think HIV meds are a waste of time and my VL and CD4 results are meaningless? Of course, saying you can’t advise means nothing when on the other hand you are inferring the HIV doesn’t exist...please decide one or the other. If you can’t say unequivocally that my medication is a waste of time stop posting such inaccurate rubbish.

You should really stop writing such absolute shit. As I have already said, you are potentially endangering the lives of vulnerable people who read your ill informed posts.

Jeez I need wine...

Eastie77, totally agree with you, it’s always worth questioning things and it can help to understand why. Up-to-date thinking is great, and If we don’t wonder why, our mum’s can be really good in saying “in my day...” So not a bad thing at all and helps in reassurance we are doing the best for ourselves and our family.

I’m guessing you had the western blot test .... and I would have thought that as an absolute minimum you’d know the criterion for which you were diagnosed ... but the more you write, the more I understand how you have unquestioningly accepted your diagnosis without looking at any opposing research in any depth

@Eastie77 totally agree. But the trouble with the party line on mumsnet is that the mainstream scientists can’t ever be questioned and if other scientists question them, then they’re quacks and must be discredited at all costs

@HIVpos hi there, I remember you from a very frank and thought provoking thread you wrote about your health condition and what living with hiv means for you (waves).

I have been reading this last couple of pages with something amounting to horror and disbelief rising that this is genuinely an exchange you are having to have.

I’m sorry you have to deal with stuff like this (ok I’ve had to rewrite that line several times so it’s politer than originally meant). Genuinely... what the...??????

now I’ve finally found a good use for this emoji, used for the first time ever...

Most tellingly, I have now asked you 3 times if you think I should stop taking my meds
Yes and I said I wouldnt advise you what to do ....(because quite frankly you’re a perfect stranger).... but I said I WOULDNT CONSIDER TAKING THEM FOR A SECOND... can I make it any clearer

Hmmm that would be a NO then as you wouldn’t want to risk the outcome of your saying I shoulld stop my meds. Should make no difference whatsoever if I’m a stranger or not if you truly believe HIV is, as you said, “a harmless passenger virus”. What you are in fact saying is you actually think I might just possibly be telling the truth, even though you yourself prefer, for whatever deluded reason, to think otherwise.

Elisa test, western blot, 4th gen, VL, CD4, P24....had everything needed to absolutely prove, beyond all doubt, that I am living with HIV. I am the first to admit I have never been a scientist, but learning all the facts and up to date info, how HIV 1 and HIV 2 were thought to have started, how it is passed on etc etc has helped me come to terms with it. It is bloody difficult and in helping others the last thing anyone who is newly diagnosed and probable very vulnerable needs is you spewing this crap. It would be great to deny it exists, as some do. They simp,y “run for the hills” and only return when they are extremely poorly.

Still waiting for your link to this protein that’s similar to HIV but not exclusive to it....?

Hey @WellThisIsShit haha I remember your name well, and how I wanted it at the time as it was so appropriate to me!

Wait what?...never knew there was a gin bottle on here, and there was me laying into the wine. Thanks very much - my round/bottle next

I’m actually a very nice person, and try to inform those who, like me, hadn’t a clue. I have learnt in the last couple of years to look at fact and reliable sources. I have seen those living with HIV who are in denial - who then die because they won’t take treatment, or fear the stigma, or simply don’t want to believe they have the virus.

It is very sad - and also as I said just so very dangerous.

Anecdotal but personal experience, back in the 90s I knew someone who gradually got weaker and sicker and eventually had to be hospitalised. They had HIV and they died of AIDS.

They knew all along that they had HIV and didn't seek/get treatment (for religious reasons! I grew up in a cult)

If I was ever diagnosed with HIV I would be trusting the drugs prescribed than living through what I witnessed

They were incredibly sick before they ever went into hospital

Right, many apologies to the OP and other posters...as you were...back to does MMR cause autism. No, in my view it doesn’t so IMO YANU 😀

I have a lovely very intelligent American friend who I met studying overseas. One day Facebook’s algorithms took me on to her sister’s Facebook, and truly another country. Trump supporter, flat earther, conspiracy theories running amok about 9/11, women belong in the home and should submit to their husbands etc etc. Of course anti vaxxer, lots of pseudo scientific studies but also that it is an instrument of the devil, even the badge of the US medical corps is the twinned serpents of the devil. There is no arguing with a deranged mindset........

I am concerned about it. At 12 months my son was speaking normally for his age - 'see car', 'see moon' etc. He was a bit slower with his other milestones but not markedly. Then he had his 18 month shots. He was a bit feverish for a couple of days then he stopped talking completely. For 6 months. Then when he did try to start talking again it was all garbled and not one word, although the intonations were correct. He also had some autistic behaviours such as lining up cars, staring at fans etc. We had him in speech therapy for years. My daughter however skipped the 18 month shots for some reason (overseas I think) but she had them individually spaced further apart and no problem. I know it's not politically correct to say so but I think there is definitely a link.

I know it's not politically correct to say so but I think there is definitely a link.

There is NO LINK. I know it's natural to look for reasons why but MMR does not cause autism. There is absolutely no link as shown over and over in the research carried out.

@user1497863568 so many parents have had a very similar experience x

An experience which is coincidental given that there is no link between the MMR vaccine and autism.

Correlation isn’t causation. The pattern of regression you describe is well recognised as one of the ways autism manifests in children. There has been research into anything that happens to children during the time window that this regression commonly occurs, trying to understand it. The MMR vaccination is one of the things that happens during that time window and so there have been studies to see if a link can be established. No link has been found. There will continue to be studies. We still don’t know why it happens but we do know that certain things have been ruled out. The vaccination is one of those things.

I am pro-vax, however, I don't think it has been universally proven that there is 'No Link', what has been proven is that Wakefield faked his research and additionally because he linked his research to 'bowel problems' subjected some children to unnecessary and very distressing experiments.

I will add to user149's post in that my ds had a bad physical reaction to where the 1st injection was made - his very experienced childminder said she had never seen anything so bad and that the nurse must have been "brutal".

The lining up of cars started soon after, and much else, he was diagnosed with ASD aged 7. He's now 17 and after years of hell is doing well.

Was it linked to the MMR vaccine? I don't know, it might be, or not. I am still pro-vax, but maybe not so many combined, I really don't know.

I’ve not read this yet, but it looks like an interesting book regarding adverse vaccine reactions studies

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/188121740X/ref=ox_sc_act_title_16?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&psc=1&tag=mumsnetforum-21

The study published this week is not based around
further discrediting Wakefield's "research", it was looking specifically at whether it not there is a link between MMR and autism.

It concluded that there is no link.

annals.org/aim/article-abstract/2727726/measles-mumps-rubella-vaccination-autism-nationwide-cohort-study

"MMR vaccination does not increase the risk for autism, does not trigger autism in susceptible children, and is not associated with clustering of autism cases after vaccination."