AIBU to remind everyone that the MMR vaccine does NOT cause autism?

[TheHodgeoftheHedge]

Seeing as this worry comes up so many times on MN and in wider life, I feel obliged to post this and remind everyone that MMR has not link to autism whatsoever, as yet another HUGE study has found.

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/mmr-vaccine-autism-antivax-measles-study-andrew-wakefield-a8808086.html

Thanks.

Cathmidston

I wish you a long and healthy life, as I wish everyone.
If they are still quite young, I sincerely hope that your children don’t have difficulty reconciling their feelings for the parent they love when they are old enough to fully appreciate the dangers that parent knowingly exposed them and others to.

Lweji I’ll have a debate with you if you watch that documentary/and come back to me...

Am I supposed to believe a documentary over 1000s of scientific articles that I've read over the years and over 25 years of research experience?

... In infectious diseases.

25 years and you still believe in germs. I think you’re beyond hope

Lweji you don’t have to believe it no... but you might find it interesting. All the interviews are with scientists .... bit pointless commenting on it, if you’ve not seen it ...that’s all.

JRMisOdious and I wish you a very good recovery from your breast cancer

My kids are well aware of my reasoning and the other side of the argument. I try to keep them informed of not only my views but the views of others

I know...
What can I say?

I've watched two documentaries yesterday (off work and with a cold, unrelated). One about the 90s, the other about alien conspiracies (ok, I didn't really watch this one). They were not the same. Documentaries are not peer reviewed and can be choosy with facts. Even present outright lies.

All the interviews are with scientists

Like intelligent design "scientists"?

Well I'm probably just shouting into the void as I'm late to the party

But Cath... you know there is good science and bad science right?

I haven't seen your documentary, I like documentaries though so may look it up later. But someone who has 25 years of research experience in infectious diseases...

Well, they know what and why makes something good science and worth paying attention to, and what doesn't

All science, like all vaccines- is not equal playing field. We have lots and lots of crap science out there too. And crap science often makes very good documentaries

Off topic but to state my point- the MJ documentary. I'm sure it's gripping, emotive, and interesting. I will watch. But regardless how much it convinces me or makes me have any which viewpoint... does it have evidence beyond a convincing person speaking? Are they credible? If they are why, if they're not, again why? And so on. Documentaries make good tv. How accurate they are is frequently debatable... "Being a scientist" doesn't necessarily mean what they say holds weight. Of course this is why we peer review and do meta-analysis etc

measles virus wipes out your immune systems memory!
Which is probably why i was so ill with tonsilitis for months in the year after i had measles. They finally took out my tonsils when it was no longer fashionable to whip out tonsils at the first sign of a sore throat

I might actually watch that documentary at some point. It might be fun.
But with a sore throat, screaming at the screen might not be a good idea.

donaldducks... yes watch it... it’s a very interesting introduction into this debate. Many of the interviewees were and still are leading researchers in their area

Thank you. I am fully recovered, just past 3 years now.

Many of the interviewees were and still are leading researchers in their area

What areas and how would you know they're leading?

I suspect you're just click bait for the "documentary".

@donaldducksgranonceremoved thanks for answering, I appreciate it.

It makes sense. There are just so many vaccinations in one go now. I have adult/teenage children and a baby. I was shocked at how many more vaccinations baby needed than the older ones had, that's when I started reading about it all

Also a good discussion cop out.

Maybe you should read a few 100 scientific articles and then you can even begin to have a slightly more serious discussion.

I wouldn't say anti vaxxers are ignorant at all. I am pro choice! I think everyone should have the choice as there's just too many vaccinations in one go these days. 9 at 8 weeks is too much I feel.
And no I am not anti Vax.
I think a lot of people who choose to not vaccinate are actually debating within themselves what to do. Maybe delay vaccines and have the choice of single vaccinations.
I think everyone could just be a little more open minded about this. Do their research, talk to doctors, inform themselves of the ingredients and what they are. Read the insert leaflet that you get with any medication. They always tell you to read those before giving any medication but with vaccinations you don't get one unless you ask, talk to parents of vaccine injured children.
And then make your own decision.
I think that's the best way to be. Not anti Vax or pro Vax but pro-choice. I have friends who didn't vaccinate their children but I respect their choice. It's theirs to make. I make my own choices and expect to be respected too.

@KingMash yes lots of people think that more vaccines = too much for babies to handle

In fact it's the complete opposite, babies are faced with less (of the stuff anti-vaxxers talk about) to handle now than you or I would have, and get more protection (against more diseases), vaccines have improved over the years...

I don't personally like the timing of some on the NHS schedule, imo some would be more effective not given at the same time as others (not talking about vaccines that are several in one) but the problem with doing that is a) cost - more appointments, more expense and b) more appointments = more likely to miss appointments and c) more time with children having (normal and expected) reactions to vaccines which may mean time off work or sleepless nights for parents which can damage their confidence in getting the next dose...

There's no conspiracy though! We simply vaccinate in the most cost effective way to protect the most people and we can safely vaccinate against more than we used to be able to

9 at 8 weeks is too much I feel.

It's early because getting ill at that age would be even worse.
What vaccines do you think should be given later?
Babies are demonstrably not adversely affected by 9 different vaccines. Not more than by single ones.

inform themselves of the ingredients and what they are.

The problem with this, is that most laypeople are easily convinced something is something it's not by its name.

I agree though tbh with you, I don't think the way we handle reassuring parents with concerns is effective, it "seems" like there's a conspiracy if the nurse doesn't show you the insert, or the doctor doesn't sit and discuss your concerns over 9 vaccinations in an 8 week old baby but cites Wakefield is discredited... since you aren't there about the MMR it doesn't answer questions you have!

It comes down to time and money - for some people just hearing Wakefield was struck off might be enough for them to trust their GP, for others it isn't - and they end up doing their "own research" and frequently fall down bad science rabbit holes that your average GP doesn't have time (or dare I say it always the knowledge off the top of their head) to tackle for you.

I think the aggressive "you're a child abuser if you don't agree with everything the NHS tells you" stance doesn't work either... can't say someone telling me I'm stupid or a child abuser would make me warm to listen to their side. And with the prevailing attitude to new parents who do worry... who do they get pushed to, who does listen? The anti-vax camp.

Genuine question: what motivation can anti-vaxxers have?
Not talking about the individuals that naively (stupidly) believe what they are told, but what about the ones that spread the lies. Do they have something to gain from this misinformation??

I am pro-vaccines myself, I can’t imagine putting my children at risk of a deadly disease even to avoid side effects.

Here’s a list of those featured in the film:
www.houseofnumbers.com/about-house-of-numbers/the-interviewees.html

So first I’m a Russian bot and now I’m click bait

Donald Abrams, MD
San Francisco, CA, USA
Chief, Hematology-Oncology, San Francisco General Hospital

Dr. Donald Abrams is a Professor of Clinical Medicine at the University of California, San Francisco. He is also the Chief of Hematology‐Oncology at San Francisco General
Hospital, the Director, Integrated Oncology Research Program at the Osher Center for Integrative Medicine, and a practitioner at the university's Comprehensive Cancer Center........
And so on.....

Not talking about the individuals that naively (stupidly) believe what they are told, but what about the ones that spread the lies. Do they have something to gain from this misinformation??

Have a look at some anti vaccination sites for an answer to this. All links are either internal or shilling some product or other.

Alt medicine people are in it for the money just as much as “big pharma” and they make a lot of it.

Genuine question: what motivation can anti-vaxxers have?
Not talking about the individuals that naively (stupidly) believe what they are told, but what about the ones that spread the lies. Do they have something to gain from this misinformation??

Tbh I don't think anyone believes they are spreading lies.

If say a parent does have a child who genuinely experiences vaccine damage, they are pretty much shunned and not listened to. It's only natural they then feel they want to warn others and become more vocal in their anger at what's happened

Or if a parent has a child who by complete coincidence begins to experience symptoms around the time of their vaccinations- it's incredibly easy for the parent to decide vaccine = symptom and declare it to be vaccine damage and again they become vocal in their anger at what's happened

The conspiracy imo looks more convincing the other way. Except that there isn't one. Just a lack of time, money and empathy

9 at 8 weeks is too much I feel

The nurse who gave DS his 12 month injections told us that they do it this way as most people wouldn’t bother coming back 2, 3 or 4 times to get their children fully immunised. I don’t know how true this is of course.
For the record I also think anti vaxxers are beyond ignorant.

Really good health information portals would help I think. NHS site is good. We should build on that. There’s so much rubbish out there.

We need trusted websites in the way we feel a doctor is more credible than a quack.

DS is ASD and had the MMR. It did not cause his autism.

However parents are more careful and more fearful now of their kids. I think better, more accessible evidence is very important. Especially ones that address their concerns point by point and counter any misinformation. Ones that don’t just say ‘get vaccinated’ we know best. Parents want to be more informed now.