Does this sound like grooming? Please help- step uncle

[Lam23]

Posting for traffic/I’m not sure where else this belongs..
Background if it helps: I’m a mum of a nearly 4 year old. She is very bright, happy, outgoing, completely normal development wise and attends nursery full time. I met dh when she was 2 and they have a great relationship, which has grown over time, i can honestly say I really trust him and she has started to call him daddy which feels natural for us all. Her dad has never been in the picture and we have no contact with him.
I have recently begun to have real worries about her relationship with my dh’s brother. He is 31, unmarried, no kids. Generally quite an immature guy (loves gaming, works minimum wage job and lives in a flat share) but seems pleasant enough since I’ve known him. However, since he met dd at a family gathering probably a year ago, alarm bells are ringing for me more and more and I don’t know if it’s instinct or paranoia. Every time he sees her he picks her ups lot, tickles her, cuddles her, he addresses her as “friend” (seems odd for a 3 year old), he always buys her extravagant presents whenever we see him. She is a trusting kid and I’m beginning to think, too trusting- because of all the positive attention he gives her (and maybe because she lacked a “dad figure” the first couple years of her life?) she absolutely loves him, talks about him loads, nowadays whenever he is there at a family gathering she just wants to go to him and has a tantrum if I say no or keep her next to me. It seems really excessive that she is so into him and that he had instigated this type of relationship with her- dh’s sister, who has kids, has what I would consider a more normal relationship with my dd and is lovely to her but definitely doesn’t push the boundaries. He has now offered to babysit a few times and I refuse point blank each time which I think dh is a little upset by (dh idolises his brother and I can’t talk to him about ANY of this). It happened again yesterday with lots of cuddling, sitting on his knee. My own brothers don’t do this with my dd and I feel like I can’t put a stop to it, but she is so trusting and I don’t know how to protect her. Whenever she needs a male figure she seems to get overly attached anyway, but for me this is going too far. She doesn’t want to be near me or dh when his brother is around, the amount of presents makes me uncomfortable and I feel like the physical stuff in public is a possible first step of grooming. Can anyone please help me understand what to do, it’s a really sensitive situation. Does this sound odd? I would appreciate anyone who knows about signs of grooming etc to weigh in. Do I sound crazy?
Fwiw my mum and sister are both teachers and having witnessed the interactions said that their own instincts were kicking in too and that the developing relationship wasn’t necessarily appropriate/he seemed a little over interested in kids.
Please help, this is stressing me out so much whenever we are around family.

Hi Lam is it tonight your mum is coming over?

Lam I know the discussion has moved way past this but I wanted to comment on your DH getting angry when you asked him to stop relaying your daily movements via photos to the family Facebook page.

My DHs family is very enmeshed. It took me years and lots of reading to figure out the strange dynamic of his family, which is so different from my family of origin. I had never heard of enmeshment and emotional incest (when family members invade boundaries and treat children as adults emotionally and over-confide). But the result is a family where privacy is not allowed, parents feel the right to know everything that is going on with adult children and there is very much an "us against them" mentality with the outside world and people who are not family members.

I particularly don't like that none of his family checked to make sure you were comfortable with him constantly posting (invading your privacy), instead there is the assumption that you join the family and behave exactly as they do. The eagerness to adopt your dd and him be a parent sounds like a dream come true, except it seems to be totally on their terms. He gets angry if you don't "get with the program". My guess is his mum has decided that she'd like dd as a grandchild and so DH is falling over himself to get her approval. Behind this is the implied threat that he could lose his mum's approval.

My son of almost 13 was visiting his grandma recently and he commented that all that side of the family were obsessively posting to Facebook all day which he found strange. Often in these families appearance is everything, they don't talk about things openly and honestly and family members can be controlled by the group excluding them. So your DH might be going to great lengths to make you look like the "perfect little family" to get his mom and family's approval because one of his jobs is to make them look good.

My DHs family also expect everyone to come to every family event, you are not asked, it is more like a Royal Court, your attendance is a nonnegotiable and woe betide if you show any freedom of thought or independence. We actually live hundreds of miles away so it is not possible for us, but when we did live closer I found "no" is not allowed and DH was terrified of saying no to his mum. It rang alarm bells when you said you were expected to be there for days at Christmas and then another three family events for a baptism or something.

Families like this have strange behaviours that remind me of kittens that all have to bundle together all the time out of compulsion. They don't really share at a deep level and they don't recognize independence, in fact they see it as a threat. Instead you are supposed to think as one "hive mind" and all be together, constantly monitoring each other: hence Facebook has been a godsend to them. They are able to obsess about looking good to the world while constantly stalking each other and making sure they do what is acceptable to "the family".

This may sound exaggerated but that is EXACTLY what DHs family are like. They want to come over and literally photograph every single room in our house and put it on Facebook. They were actually aghast when DH said they didn't have our permission, because usually you not allowed to withhold permission. You have to do what his mum wants or she will have a huge tantrum or look devastated that my DH used to be frightened of but now is able to withstand because he is 50 and his mum is 74! I'm not kidding when we first met he would get so anxious trying to please her. Your DH also seems very anxious to please his family. A helpful phrase for people embroiled in a dysfunctional family is that they are in the FOG: controlled by Fear, Obligation and Guilt. That's how abuse can happen: a lack of boundaries, not able to be honest and truthful which each other, secrets and lies are implied and an preoccupation with appearances and looking good to the outside world.

Excuse the long post! I just wanted to share what I have learnt after interacting with them for 22+ years.

OP please know that you and your happiness matters and you have every right to free yourself from any situation which does not make you happy, does not respect your autonomy, or undermines your wishes in any way.

But let’s get real: the first thing you need to prioritise is getting your daughter out of this toxic family system. That’s your responsibility.

OP, I assume from your username that you’re 23 years old?

Here’s a life lesson from a woman who’s pushing 40:

There is no happy ending. There is only life, and life will continue to throw shit at you whether or not you have a man by your side. Your happiness comes through learning to deal with the shit.

I’ve known a number of women in my life who have glossed over some appalling behaviour from their partners, because they feel they were “lucky” to get a man when they’ve got a kid/kids in tow. I think it should be the other way around: a mother should take her time with a new partner to decide if he’s worthy of her and her children. He’s the one who is “lucky” to have them.

Please don’t think your entire future happiness rests on having a man/being married.

"Having your back" means someone supports you in your decision, emotionally and practically. Not that they get pissy when you don't do what THEY think is best for you.

If you're 23, you're still so, so young, you have masses of time to enjoy yourself in. You don't need a husband to be happy. Specially not one whose feelings you have to babysit all the time.

And his brother--reasonable people respond reasonably to reasonable requests. It is reasonable to say "I think things with DD have been a bit too physical lately, I'm asking you as the grown-up to cool it all down a bit. No laps for a bit, no tickling, no presents." A reasonable person says yes, of course. A creep makes a fuss.

OP you and your DD will be OK in the end. As many others have said I'd really confide in your mum and sister. To me it seems like you've been pulled into this potentially toxic family when you were vulnerable- pnd, single mum, lonely. Now you're in a different place. You can see more clearly. I'd say definitely trust your instincts re BIL, and also your subconscious instincts re DH. From my experience of living with someone who was a bit controlling, I think you would find you feel a Lot better emotionally and mentally, away from him.

You are being a great mum to your dd. Lean on your mum and your sister and us on this thread. We have your back

Lam your devastation upon splitting would be temporary, whereas the pain of living with a controlling and manipulative man while his family piled pressure on you, and the pain of seeing your DD embroiled in the dysfunction and potentially exposed to a paedophile would be a long torment.

I think you will find you have to choose one or the other.

As a sort of signpost to you, people like your DH and the ILs do not change.

Thank you to everyone who has commented when I was feeling pretty shit yesterday. It helped to read those. My sister said she thought dh was “abusive” and that his family are incredibly insular. I couldn’t really argue with some stuff she was saying about how dh has treated me with sulks etc or also the fact that his family are overbearing with my dd to an onlooker. I hadn’t replied to MiL text about “her littlun” and despite this she has sent me two private messages on fb to the same effect which I also haven’t replied to it’s just a bit much.
However one thing I can say is I’ve been more resolved than ever this week. After he got in a strop the other night dh stormed off to my dd room (we have a small flat so not many places to storm off) where he lay on the bed with a blanket over his head! (She was in the bath at the time) I actually had to ask him to vacate when I was trying to sort her out for bed.. whenever I feel sad I am keeping that image of my mind of a man (and his family) who don’t care how absurd they come across to my dd (eg blanket over head) but continue to try and appear like the Disney dad/family around her when the mood strikes them.
I dunno if that made sense.
Lots of thinking going on. What I mean is it’s all false the stuff with my dd and them being this perfect family ,and even me and dh and dd being a perfect family. If you don’t feel supported and heard then what’s the point?

I’m not 23 btw but late twenties.

Stay resolved Lam - you are so young being late twenties, don’t get stuck with him at this age. He’s acting like a toddler for goodness sake with the blanket over the head strop. My ex husband was like that with his sulks, it’s so tiring treading on egg shells around someone like that. Your DD is so young too - much better to get out now than when she’s older.

Man, just imaging being in your late thirties with this shit still going on. One actual adolescent (your 14 yo dd) and then that sort of adolesecent behaviour from a grown man.

I'm probably just an echo chamber for PPs at this point.

OP:

"Before diagnosing yourself with depression or anxiety, consider first whether you are surrounded by assholes."

I don't say this to make light of depression or mood disorders, but merely to point out that virually anyone would be depressed under the circumstances you have outlined in this thread:

1. Your husband is emotionally abusive:

• He controlled and intimidated you with mood swings and stroppy tantrums until you were 'walking on eggshells' around him.

• You say that this has improved since you asserted yourself. Maybe it has slightly, but from your posts, what actually appears to have happened is that you've largely internalised his abuse and control...

He doesn't need to throw his weight around anywhere near as much to get his/his family's way, because you're already controlling yourself for him - censoring a great deal of your wants, needs, opinions, and parental boundaries and even suppressing/ignoring your mama bear, for fear of his reaction and/or to 'keep the peace'.

He's turned a self-professed feminist into a submissive woman who is afraid to speak her mind and set boundaries for her own life, her own time, her own daughter, her own home.

• He demands from you, a grown fucking woman and his equal, a 'good enough reason' why you don't want to attend extended family events, as though it's his right to give or withold 'permission'. He then argues you into submission.

• He gets angry at you when you do manage to assert yourself (e.g. refusing to quit your job, isolate yourself and make yourself financially dependent upon him).

1. Your husband does not respect your boundaries:

• He allowed his mother to pressure you out of the wedding you wanted (and/or participated in pressuring you).

• He pressured you to quit your job against your stated preference.

• He pressures you into attending his extended family events against your stated preference - niece's christening, Christmas, weekend visits etc.

• He has argued with you numerous times in an attempt to pressure you into giving him an equal say in parenting a child he has known for 18 months.

• I'm sure you can come up with many more examples.

1. You are married to a man whose loyalty you have very good reason to question:

• He has repeatedly demonstrated his willingness to prioritise his extended family's whims over the wants and needs of the woman he made vows to.

• He cares far more about chasing his abusive brother's approval and appeasing his boundary stomping parents than he does about being respectful husband who prioritises his wife and family.

• His behaviour indicates that he esteems their judgement and good opinion far more than that of his wife.

• You suspect, also with very good reason, that your husband will vigorously argue against protecting your minor child from the obsessive attentions of a grown man who is determined to both purchase her affections and manufacture a bond... And who appears largely uninterested with developing a respectful relationship with her mother, or other adults in general.

You know for a fact that he would flat out refuse to 'allow' you to protect her from continued exposure to an active alcoholic.

1. You have had to constantly defend against you and your daughter being engulfed by your husband's toxic, boundary-stomping family:

The entirety of your marriage can be characterised by either:

a. You attempting to state or enact your personal and parental boundaries and being overridden/dismissed by your husband and/or his family.

b. You attempting to gain distance and independence in order to protect yourself and your daughter from this toxic engulfment and boundary stomping and having your efforts continually and aggressively challenged and undermined by your husband.

c. You being too afraid to enact your entirely reasonable personal and parental boundaries with either your husband or his family.

1. Your husband's family is a circus of dysfunction:

• Normal, healthy, functional people don't create a Golden Child/Scapegoat dynamic amongst their children.
• Normal, healthy, functional people don't allow one child to repeatedly abuse another.
• Normal, healthy, functional people don't enable or excuse alcohol abuse.
• Normal, healthy, functional people don't offer up their children to alcoholic abusers to 'babysit'
• Normal, healthy, functional people respect others' boundaries and parental authority

Question:

OP: You mention BIL's 'extreme bullying' of your husband until his teen years:

1. Did he ever apologise/make amends, or was this merely rugswept and pretended away?

1. I assume MIL and FIL knew about the bullying. How did they respond? What did they do to prevent it?

Brother

How did they react rugsweep apologise
Rugsweep alcoholism

Engulfment sexism boundary stomping golden child
Loyalty to tribe
Alcoholism
Enabling
Chasing approval defending alcoholism

Gavin de Becker gift of fear protecting the gift
"...his “raison d’etre” is “shaping kids” and having influence over them which is why he has worked in a school and in his current role in police..."

Spare me an abusive, boundary stomping bully of an alcoholic with the arrogance to presume to shape young impressionable minds.

Wow! Perhaps you should video him so next time he accuses you of being irrational or ridiculous, you’ve got the goods. This is NOT the behaviour of an emotionally adult human.

Please take steps to leave OP. This won’t end well if you stay. Protect your daughter, and yourself.

I’ve read this thread from the start, and I can’t imagine how difficult this must be for you. I just wanted to let you know how lovely it is to see you almost blossom into yourself again. You’ve come such a long way in a very short time, and it’s obvious that you only have dd’s best interests at heart.

You are doing absolutely the right thing re protecting her, and with stepping back and looking at your relationship with your dh with fresh eyes. Please keep going, you are on the right track.

He laid on the bed with a blanket over his head? Did he think that you wouldn't be able to see him?!

How ridiculous.

This thread has expanded hugely since I first visited it and I haven't read the full thing (have read ce's summary) but what if say is;

Instincts are rarely wrong.

I also didn't realise at the start that your little girl isn't your partners or related by blood to his brother, I suppose it shouldn't matter but it makes me even more uncomfortable about his brother's behaviour and the whole story.

Please take steps to leave OP. This won’t end well if you stay. Protect your daughter, and yourself.

This.

Even your mother thinks he's abusive. Listen to her.

You don't have a baby with this man so the situation is far from a disaster. If you need to walk away for your daughters sake then you absolutely can.

I would really take the time to explore all this in therapy first though. You made some rash decisions before (understandably) and it would be a shame to do anything else in a rush.

Obviously dial back the in-laws though. Would your DH consider counselling for himself? That would be ideal if he were able to explore his own family dynamics with a therapist, but from what you've said it doesn't sound like he'd see a problem that needs fixing and would not go.

Ultimately (but do chat thoroughly with counsellor and family first) I would lay all your cards on the table with DH and see what he says. Give him the opportunity to see his family the way you do. He may not take it, in which case you perhaps just aren't compatible in terms of parenting your daughter and being a family together. But he's been caught up in their strangeness for a long time, you wouldn't expect him to see it for what it is half as quickly as you do.

I pray you can make sense of everything and make the right call for you and your DD. You sound like you are doing a great job putting her first.

Given how quickly you were lovebombed into 'committing' to him and his constant low level manipulation and abuse.....i think you should give it some serious thought that perhaps it was YOU that was groomed by him because you had a small child and were easily impressionable.

Now that he's 'got you' he's trying even more to control you and isolate you from your own family/support network.

Longterm i think you know this marriage is dead.
You can't risk having dc with him.
He won't recognize or set strong boundaries with his family for yours and dd's safety.

When you're ready, remember -
You don't need to give him a 'reason' why you're ending the marriage.
A simple 'i don't love you' is good enough.
The longer you remain with him the stronger is/his family's chances of applying for and getting access/contact with your dd post divorce because they can claim they have built a relationship with her.

I don't think you havew time to lose really.

I really really do not like your husband. You're getting great advice on here and you're starting to think clearly about the situation.

I hope you leave him and spend some time alone and having counselling. You're a strong woman, you just need to start believing in yourself, and stop blaming yourself for life events.
You can leave him just like that. X

He doesn't have to hit you to abuse you. Remember that.
Stay close to your family, and protect your DD.
Your DH is an idiot, and I think you'll leave him before too long, just make sure you and DD are safe in the meantime.
You're doing great, and remember there's a whole nest of vipers here rooting for you

He is clearly not mature and doesn't really care for your feelings if he's unwilling to actually listen to your worries. He wants a housewife he can control from the sounds of it. Be strong

If you do leave, be prepared to hear a lot about how they only tried to love and include you and DD, and how damaged/ twisted/ warped [insert nasty adjective here] you must be to reject all of that...

Your sister has a good head on her shoulders, fwiw.

Have had a pretty horrible weekend as I haven’t been able to stop thinking about all of this and dh knows something is up but tbh since his angry outburst at end of last week I just have lost the energy to have a conversation with him about anything. He knows somethings up as he keeps doing stuff like buying me flowers/cooking elaborate meals/helping with chores he’s never done before but I honestly feel numb. I’m basically NC with his family now, though as previously mentioned his dm continues to message me.
This has made me think about a lot of stuff I sort of buried but the worst thing being that he has had no qualms in the past about raising voice at me in front of dd, making me cry in front of dd etc. That really hurts me as I feel so guilty and alone it should have made me question him way sooner. I just wanted to believe he didn’t mean to be nasty he says he finds it hard to control his emotions. This is the thing- his whole family suppress all this rage and emotional immaturity under things like alcohol, gifts and appearing the perfect family. I do not want such a life for me or dd and I don’t want kids with dh knowing this.
I think I need to start takin those steps to leave because things don’t change. Im just really scared of being alone again, that scared overwhelmed and lonely single mum I used to be. I wanted dd to have a family and a happy mum but I’ve gone about this the wrong way.
I have counselling this week so will discuss this with my therapist and try to behave normally around dh while I get ducks somewhat in a row.
Just devastated.