Is it offensive or am I being silly?

[CocaColaaa]

Just a quick one but NC for this as I guess its outing.

My childrens school are doing world book day and the “theme” is peter pan, its given some suggestions of characters you can dress up as and one is tigerlilly. I was thinking of chosing that one for DD as I hate all of the tinkerbell dresses but ive heard its offensive to dress up as certain things. Native americans being on of them. Is it offensive or am I being silly? Why oh why do they have to do themes and not just let people pick their favourite book characters 😩

The problem with the word appropriation is that it makes it sound like you are stealing, when the truth is that those practising the culture are still free to keep doing so.
This has not always been the case for indigenous Americans. Whilst some of us white folk were, as children, joyously playing as stereotypical Indians, indigenous North Americans had their cultural practices banned and had their children removed in a deliberate attempt to eradicate their culture. A lot of aspects of their cultures have been lost. We did steal their cultures (whilst concurrently constructing the 'Indian' parody of their cultures).

And, again, I'd consider dressing as an 'Indian' to be as much about plain old racism as cultural appropriation.

@zippey - out of interest, are you talking as:

1. an indigenous person in a county that's been colonised?

1. someone from a country with a history of imperialism?

1. someone of European decent who has, or whose ancestor have, settled in a country with an indigenous population?

1. someone else entirely?

I just want to know how much weight to give your opinion that 'cultural appropriation is nonsense' and indeed that we should be encouraging more of it.

My dn school were told the theme was Peter Pan and my ds was "that parent" and asked if they'd reconsider.

What annoys me about this is we constantly tell our children to be proud of who you are and comfortable in your own skin but when it comes to world book day - a day which should be celebrating creativity and free speech you have to be who we tell you and moreover, if you're black like my family, you have to dress up as a white person or be an offensive character.

There is Nothing wrong with a black person dressing up as a white character or vice versa but why should we have to?

My ddad, who has faced far more racism/violence than I have, actually went as far as to say it's basically white people telling the black people to dress up as white people... how is that ok?

@zippey
I can only talk from my perspective but one of the reasons Cultural appropriation is such a sensitive subject is because, a lot of the time, that culture has just spent the last however any centuries being abused, ridiculed made to be inferior etc.

So now the same community that took your land/lives, abused/killed you, said you were a different species/backwards/inferior, is now saying "ohhh that headdress/outfit etc is pretty, I'm going to wear it"

(obviously there's more to it but on a basic level you catch my drift).

push What about food? Do you remember the outcry from Dawn Butler about Jamie's jerk chicken? Watching Masterchef, it's remarkable how few contestants make traditional British. No matter what their ethnicity, everyone seems to be able to make a curry and there's Thai this or Middle Eastern that. I can remember when garlic breath or Asian cooking smells were used as a reason for not liking foreigners.

And clothing? Kaftans and flip flops are now standards. Kimono jackets had a moment last year. Native American turquoise and silver jewellery. Jeans. Bomber jackets. Breton tops. Is that good or bad?

Good, I think. Because interconnections, common humanity, more that unites than divides us is better than putting up barriers, emphasising differences. Progressive not regressive.

I think the blanket rule of actors not playing characters which are a different race from themselves can be taken a bit too far. For major film and television work, yes, maybe they could find actors of matching ethnic origins. But for amateur productions by local theatre groups, schools, drama clubs etc. its very limiting. What about Miss Saigon, The King and I, West Side Story, etc. And what about Lloyd webber productions such as Jesus Christ Superstar- Biblical characters should surely be of middle-eastern origin?

It would make mixed race actors lives bloody hard. Poor old DS would have zero parts.

“I think the blanket rule of actors not playing characters which are a different race from themselves can be taken a bit too far.”
Is there such a ban?

As I said, way back, this sort of thing often originates in academia. It's an overcrowded field, so there's pressure to come up with something new to carve out a career. They create a thesis and then try to apply it in practice. The more examples they find, the more their thesis is validated. So we move further and further into absurdity.

And you end up with Mumsnetters creating threads asking 'Is this racist?' or 'Is this sexist?' And the very dodgy field of casual racism/sexism and micro-aggression. And when they run out of material they go back in time and decide that Baby, it's cold outside is about date rape or Biggles was an anti-semite.

Focus on fixing the glaring injustices that still exist. And if you're Irish and riding the crest of a wave, with the English queuing up to get a passport and be Irish, too, celebrate it. 'You've come a long way, baby.' Harping (sorry) on about common idioms like 'beyond the pale' or 'paddy' which may or may not relate to the oppression of your past is counterproductive. Let it go.

There are very few parts which are race/colour specific. And I would imagine that most amateur theatre groups would find it quite easy not to put in a production of The King and I,

Thymeout, stop being sensible! Nobody wants to have their oppression questioned. What about adopted black children? Will they inherit oppression from their birth parents, or be thrown on the RADA reject pile because of their white family's assumed privilege? Fecko's DS would possibly need some sort of medical certificate to gauge the level of oppression in his bloodstream. It could be like UCAS points.
Not all white people are descended from swaggering imperialists, and many have been just as oppressed as non white people, but that would spoil the argument.

“I think the blanket rule of actors not playing characters which are a different race from themselves can be taken a bit too far.”
Is there such a ban?

Not as such - however for the new film Westside Story there was an outcry when one of the main actresses wasn't to be played by a person of Puerto Rican descent

Productions like hairspray, the colour purple, scottsboro' boys, Nine night wouldn't work with colour-blind casting

But things like othello can if the colours are reversed (mainly black cast white othello)

I'm sorry I haven't read the thread entirely since my last comment - but colour blind casting can be problematic as can being mixed race in the performance arts

“Harping (sorry) on about common idioms like 'beyond the pale' or 'paddy' which may or may not relate to the oppression of your past is counterproductive. Let it go.”
I brought up “paddy” because I had a real life example where using the name would have been unkind and insensitive. Or should I have just told my fil to “let it go”?

“But things like othello can if the colours are reversed (mainly black cast white othello)“ That would fit nicely into the “white people are the new oppressed minority” narrative too!

I’ve just watched the most recent video posted on this thread in support of the argument that Native American costume should be avoided. The speaker is articulate and persuasive but, once again, the links to the specific situation described by the OP are extraordinarily weak. It’s worth noting too that she begins by acknowledging that some Native Americans “don’t see the problem” in any case.

A lot of hobby horses being ridden on this thread.

'So when you put your children in a Pow Wow princess costume, think of all the Native children who died practising their real culture and wearing traditional clothing."

Exactly how specific do they have to be? It seems pretty clear to me. Just because they didn't account for every possible country and scenario it doesn't make it anymore ok. They don't have to specify It isn't ok, even if you are a five year old in England, to clarify that Native Americans(As a group) find it harmful and derogatory to dress in these costumes.

The law says that theft is a criminal offence but it didn't specifically say that stealing a reduced chicken from my local Tesco express at 5pm on a Friday is wrong, so does that mean it's ok for me to do that?

Also no, not all Native Americans believe that dressing as Tigerlily is offensive but judging by the plethora of articles and videos and lectures on this issue it appears that the majority of them, or at least a considerable proportion of them do so why not refrain from dressing in Native American style costumes? No one's life will be any poorer because they chose not to wear a Tiger Lily outfit.

@Thymeout - it's definitely a good thing... if done correctly!

My gf was a politician, which is why my family came to England, and my gm used to take traditional food from our home country around to her neighbours. I guess as a way to try and familiarise and make it non "scary". However I know that if a white cockney who has no real experience of her culture tried to tell her how to make Jerk chicken she would be up in arms... .

It comes back to the point that sharing of cultures is a good thing. Making people aware that the big scary black guy up the road is actually not that scary because his skin is a different colour and that gross stinky curry actually tastes really nice etc is a good thing.

But people also have to be sensitive to the fact that when a community has been degraded and dehumanised you can't then turn around and say "hi we were wrong, we think that your clothes/food/music are great and want to enjoy it too" and expect the oppressed community to be 100% happy or comfortable with that.

Well, the offended Native Americans who inhabit the internet etc are shouting their opinions. You would possibly get a different answer from the non shouty ones in the real world. Taking offence is a growth industry worldwide, but most human beings are just surviving in whatever way they can.

@CarolinePooter - Not all white people are descended from swaggering imperialists, and many have been just as oppressed as non white people, but that would spoil the argument.

Of course ANYBODY can be oppressed but certain communities are more susceptible to blanket oppression and this is the issue.

Most white people who have been oppressed will have contributing factors to this oppression be it poverty, religion, education.
I can tell you right now, just from experiences within my family, numerous times where oppression/discrimination has occurred simply because of the colour of skin. Not because of the way they were dressed, the way they talked, who they were praying to, simply because they had the wrong colour skin.

You say that like Indigenous peoples being 'shouty' aka daring to voice their opinions, and wanting their rights to be respected and discrimination against them to end is a bad thing.

“most human beings are just surviving in whatever way they can.”

Yep. And if I can do anything to make that survival even a tiny bit pleasanter I will. For example, by not calling my child a name that has bad associations for someone who loves him. And by not teaching my children that upholding racial stereotypes is an OK thing to do.

As always, you try to draw a direct and totally unambiguous line between the videos posted and the OP’s situation - sorry, I just don’t see it. The latest video - egregious as its examples are - says almost nothing directly relevant to the OP. The speaker seems principally concerned with things like the wearing of war bonnets and sexualised costumes for adults The one, very brief, reference to children’s costume is about Hallowe’en in Canada not a primary school reading event in England. In any case, the matter is not as clear cut as you would like it to be; the speaker also says it is possible to “honour native people by buying something authentic”. Once again, the evidence you are offering is, at best, extremely weak.

It never fails to amaze me how desperately some cling to racism as though it's a beloved childhood toy or a much needed support. Will your lives really be poorer without it? Why are you so scared to give it up?

Again do they have to list every possible fucking scenario in order to be taken seriously? She is speaking of Canada because that is her country but it is clear that it is a global message. She is not just speaking to Canadians. It's on bloody YouTube which is watched by people from all over the world. If I say that as a Scot I find racism abhorrent I do not mean that I find racism perfectly palatable in England or the US or Australia or France even if I choose to use examples that I have witnessed in Scotland.