Is it offensive or am I being silly?

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Just a quick one but NC for this as I guess its outing.

My childrens school are doing world book day and the “theme” is peter pan, its given some suggestions of characters you can dress up as and one is tigerlilly. I was thinking of chosing that one for DD as I hate all of the tinkerbell dresses but ive heard its offensive to dress up as certain things. Native americans being on of them. Is it offensive or am I being silly? Why oh why do they have to do themes and not just let people pick their favourite book characters 😩

If anyone is interested in reading more about the Native American experience, a new book is coming out soon in the UK (it has already been published in the US): The Heartbeat of Wounded Knee. It explores native history from 1890 to today (the standard text Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, also well worth reading, focuses on pre-20th century history). I can't imagine anyone reading these books and then deciding that stereotypes are harmless.

One early summer morning I was on a train in London and a group of young 20 something people boarded who looked like they were returning from a festival and had not slept the night before.

One tall, willowy blonde young woman was remarkable in that she sported a huge native American war bonnet. She also appeared to be covered in blood, from her face down to her sandals. She was chatting in French to her friends and seemed happy and exhausted.

I couldn't help but stare as it is not often that ones sees a statuesque young woman wearing native regalia and covered in blood.

She caught my gaze and smiled and I asked her what was going on re the war bonnet. She replied that she was Canadian and returning from a music festival in Reading. Apparently she had worn the bonnet to several festivals all over the word and each time she had worn it people had accused her of being racist and insensitive. She had been accused of cultural appropriation and contributing towards cultural genocide.

The blood was fake but she had decided to use it to "honour First Nation people's experience of genocide".

It took me some time to lift my jaw from the floor.

This young woman, having been told repeatedly that her war bonnet was hurtful, racist and insensitive had stuck her fingers up at her critics by dressing herself in a genocidal themed costume and then claimed it was "honouring" the very people she was disrespecting.

I suggested that if genocidally themed costumes were her thing that maybe she should black up and put a noose round her neck for her next festival adventure at which point her attitude towards me changed and she and her friends gave me funny looks and started speaking to each other in French.

My grasp of the French language was not sufficiently good to be able to understand what they were saying but I imagine it was something along the lines of that I was a perpetually offended snowflake who didn't think it was OK to be white. Or something

If this is offensive the world has gone bonkers

Would it help if we replaced the word “offensive” with “insensitive” or “unkind”? I actually try never to use “offensive”- I think it often doesn’t fit, and anyway seems to be being hijacked by the “everyone’s offended by everything” brigade.

Just when you thought things couldn't get any more nuanced...

(That related to fillmyglass's post, not Bertrand's)

I think my last post is an absolute triumph of nuance, personally!

Glad you said it, I wouldn't want to put words in your mouth.

And I've only just realized you appear to be banning the word 'offensive'

Would it help if we replaced the word “offensive” with “insensitive” or “unkind”?

Or even with "cruel"?

All the native people I have discussed this issue with are hurt by native themed fancy dress costumes. However they understand that many non-native people are ignorant about just how hurtful these costumes are.

The much more hurtful issue is that, even when they know that oppressed people find cultural appropriation to be painful and disrespectful that people still wear the costumes anyway and dismiss their feelings as unimportant.

I think that, if you know that people from a particular culture are hurt by wearing their traditional clothes / regalia or cheap, stereotypical fancy dress costumes based on traditional regalia, and yet you still wear it or dress your kids in it anyway it is cruel.

If cultural appropriation is wrong (it’s not) then we need to ban certain literature as well. Peter Pan, The Jungle Book (most things by Rudyard Kipling) etc

And I don’t necessarily think being offensive is a bad thing. It can actually be very positive.

As others have said, this isn't 'just' a case of cultural appropriation; it's dressing up as a racist stereotype.

Has anyone on this thread actually called for banning any works of literature? I certainly haven't, and as far as I can see no one else has either. Kipling is absolutely problematic ("Take up the white man's burden. . . Your new-caught, sullen peoples, half devil and half child," etc.). As are many writers, Barrie included. I loved Laura Ingalls Wilder's books when I was a child, but her representations of Native Americans can be quite troubling. We could go on all day with such examples.

Should we build a bonfire and toss all these books in? Absolutely not. But we can place them in context and draw reasonable conclusions about them, including identifying stereotypes and misrepresentations and prejudice.

@bertrandrussell - I would vote for unkind - I don't know why & it is probably a little old fashioned word but yes insensitive could be right , but by and large I think being kind is a good thing to do - & to me "unkind" encompasses not taking account of people's or peoples' feelings ( further than that available) - so if it takes the heat out of arguments I would vote for unkind ( or indeed kind) must google "kind"

“If cultural appropriation is wrong (it’s not) ”

Can you say why not? And also, what’s the connection between cultural appropriation and Kipling.

For anyone who wishes to learn more here's another longer(16 minute) video where an Indigenous Canadian/First Nations woman discusses costumes and many of the issues that Indigenous peoples face. I personally found it very informative and near the end she briefly makes it clear that children shouldn't be dressed in these costumes either.

Thank you for the book a Recommendation, DotforShort. I'll definitely have to get that one.

Also, she suggests ways in which Non Natives can enjoy some Native/Indigenous designs and products while supporting Native Peoples.

You're very welcome, PickledLimes. And thank you for all your contributions to this thread.

Actually, I am prepared to put up a fierce defence of Kipling. Yes, some of his stuff is horrendous to modern sensibilities, ^but” he was deeply humane and a superlative story teller. And I think he is sometimes misunderstood.

Thank you DotForShort. I don't think that I've been terribly helpful as I'm far from being an expert on Indigenous peoples myself and I've been too frustrated to attempt to be eloquent but I hope that some have found the linked videos informative.

'If any question why we died/Tell them because our fathers died.'

I don't have a problem with Kipling. He was of his time.

I do have a problem with Boris Johnson quoting him in a temple in Katmandu.

Sorry - Tell them because our fathers lied'. Of course.

I should say Enid Blyton as well.

The whole idea of cultural appropriation is nonsense. When will we stop. Should we stop doing martial arts? Should whites stop rapping and hip hop? Should I stop eating dogs or making curry’s? Should we stop listening to Elvis?

The problem with the word appropriation is that it makes it sound like you are stealing, when the truth is that those practising the culture are still free to keep doing so. So it’s absolutely not theft.

Culture is essentially just a set of practices, and it’s formed to be shared among an unlimited number of people and the original practitioners don’t lose anything.

Also, when you talk about theft, its impossible to obtain authorisation from a culture. A culture is made up of individuals so what might be acceptable to some won’t be acceptable to others from the same culture, because they each have thier own minds, and opinions differ.

I think people who are against cultural appropriation are actually discouraging assimilation and multiculturalism and encouraging separatism. Segregation is never a good thing and this is effectively what you are doing by not allowing your child to celebrate someone or something they love from a different culture. It is one great way we learn about one another and encourage peace and respect.

We should be encouraging more cultural appropriation!

Should I stop eating dogs or making curry’s?

You should stop eating dogs, yes.

Again, ad nauseam, dressing asTiger Lily is not about cultural appropriation. It is about perpetuating a racial caricature.

For me, the crux of objectionable cultural appropriation is when dress or practices that are sacred to a particular culture are used or displayed, usually in a trivial way, by people who share nothing with that culture, especially if the appropriating people are from a more privileged group or class.