Is it offensive or am I being silly?

[CocaColaaa]

Just a quick one but NC for this as I guess its outing.

My childrens school are doing world book day and the “theme” is peter pan, its given some suggestions of characters you can dress up as and one is tigerlilly. I was thinking of chosing that one for DD as I hate all of the tinkerbell dresses but ive heard its offensive to dress up as certain things. Native americans being on of them. Is it offensive or am I being silly? Why oh why do they have to do themes and not just let people pick their favourite book characters 😩

Yes please!

I think that's less relevant now that there can be a black Romeo or a black Macbeth. Black actors may have lost first dibs on being Othello but there are now no limits on the parts that are open to them. Idris Elba as James Bond?

ThymeOut so your idea of fairness is to have white people with blacked faces play black people and black people allowed to take on traditionally white roles?

It is encouraging to see casting that doesn't adhere strictly to racial/ethnic categories in some productions. "Hamilton," which is one of the most remarkable works of art created in recent years IMO, famously has a racially and ethnically diverse cast playing historical figures who were white. I could imagine a white actor playing Othello. Or a woman as Hamlet. Obviously, in casting any theatrical or film production a variety of factors need to be considered. Consciously avoiding caricatures or stereotypes is crucial, and not all interpretations would be free of such dangers. I can't think of a single situation where blackface would be appropriate.

Yes please, Idris Elba would be superb as Bond, I hope he gets the chance.

Thymeout, on the subject of books, have you ever read Augustus Carp Esq? I think you would enjoy it.

@Bertrandrussell - yes - thank you - but then there could be "the other" in other ways for Othello - but then the language wouldn't work. Luckily for many I am not a theatre producer.

I don't think inoffensive blackface is theoretically impossible but, given that it has historically been used (and by some, continues to be used) to mock and dehumanize black people, it's pretty difficult to achieve. Personally I'd be waiting to hear a plurality of black voices saying 'black face is not offensive in these situations...' rather than trying to tell them they ought not be offended.

I would, however, be surprised if there was such a sea change that most black people decided that it is now okay for white people to dress a golliwogs. I think the same applies to indigenous Americans and Tigerlily.

And a word on the accusations of arrogance at our side of the debate. Again, 90-95% of indigenous North Americans were killed, directly or indirectly by white folk. In Canada as late as the 1960s, we were introducing policies of child kidnapping in order to try and stamp out their culture, whilst simultaneously parodying their culture and representing them as inaccurate stereotypes in our entertainment media. Many who survived the residential schools, and have the PTSD to show for it, are still alive today. Many of the younger generation have had their lives indirectly profoundly affected by the residential schools and our cultural crusade. Not ancient history; stuff people are living with today. In this thread, and against the historical background, we've heard voices from Native Americans saying "I find it offensive when people dress up as stereotypes of me and my culture". You don't have to look far on the internet to find many similar voices. For me, the true arrogance in this thread is the dismissal, by some (presumably mostly white people) of those voices.

I don't think there should be a blanket ban on black-face.

Why should one of the only great black Shakespeare main characters go to someone who is white when the vast majority of roles go to white people already? I think it's ridiculous to paint your skin to make you seem another race when instead you could give the role to one of the many underrepresented black actors in theatre. Saying Idris Elba was James Bond therefore all black roles can now be played by white people if they paint their faces isn't fair in my opinion, a very few traditionally white roles being played by POC is not comparable to the vast majority of roles that are still made for white people only.

What I'm trying to say is that a very select few POC actors getting to play traditionally white characters does not balance the scales. There is still a huge number more white roles than POC roles. Hence why it doesn't seem fair to me to only let a tiny amount of POC play 'white' roles but then take the few POC roles available and give them to white people.

I’ve just watched the most recent video posted on this thread. I am extremely doubtful that any of its contributors would be deeply offended by a little girl dressing as Tiger Lily for a primary school event somewhere in England.

Very true;-)

I am extremely doubtful that any of its contributors would be deeply offended by a little girl dressing as Tiger Lily for a primary school event somewhere in England.

Ah yes. A non Native American deciding whether Native Americans would be offended or not despite not asking a single Native American(in fact there have been Native Americans on this very thread saying why this would upset them)

Ok, for the avoidance of doubt, let's go with your opinion @recrudescence .

I don't know how anyone can watch that last video (about people dressing up as Native Americans at music festivals), and particularly the comments at the end, including;

"The images I am seeing are why I don't go to music festivals"
"We've become sort of mythologized and we're actually people"
"It just makes you feel exoticized"
"...not realizing how an image like a headdress can continue to keep an entire race of people down"
"That's the way it makes us feel when we see our spirituality being mocked"

and take from that that those people don't have an objections to people playing dress up as native Americans.

Admittedly, it happening on the other side of the world from most Native Americans lessens the chance it will directly offend, but I don't think that suddenly makes it acceptable.

None of what you’ve quoted indicates that a little girl dressed as Tiger Lily at a primary school in England would cause deep offence. All of the comments made are about adults wearing Native American clothing at music festivals in the United States. Interestingly too, their remarks are often humorous and mocking rather than outraged.

I think that it’s important we think about how we bring up the next generation. If we tell little children that it’s OK to dress up as Tiger Lily, then how do we then tell them that other racial stereotyping is not OK?

In any case, surely if there’s the slightest possibility that somebody might be upset by something trivial you’re thinking of doing, you just don’t do it? Why are people so wedded to the idea of dressing up as Tiger Lily?

I keep seeing 'but we're in England' used as a defence. As I mentioned earlier Britain played a huge role in the terrible treatment(and genocide) of Native American people. We are partly why they are still living in poverty, why so many of them have been forced onto reservations, why the conditions on reservations are so terrible, why they are still discriminated against and their cultures and sacred symbols used and abused.

Now there may be very few Native Americans living in the UK but you are still sending a message to other non Natives that it is acceptable to stereotype Native American people and that it is fine to appropriate their cultures. Racism is no more acceptable behind closed doors.

I could link you to many more videos and articles of Native Americans saying please don't dress as a Native American as it is offensive and hurtful but I don't think that you'd care. As for humour well it is the internet and humour can be one way of dealing with racism, and may be used when discussing it as people are offended enough st being called out on it, but they seem far more frustrated than amused to me. Especially if you read their statements that were posted a little earlier.

All of the comments made are about adults wearing Native American clothing at music festivals in the United States.
Because that's the theme of the video

And I think you're taking a huge leap to make the insertion "We've become sort of mythologized and we're actually people", "It just makes you feel exoticized""..not realizing how an image like a headdress can continue to keep an entire race of people down" "That's the way it makes us feel when we see our spirituality being mocked [oh but it's completely okay if it's a five year old girl in England]"

And if you look at the video back on page 1, some of the contributors to the Music Festival video were also in the video condemning 'Indian' costumes in more general terms.

Also I often laugh when I'm shocked. It's a very common reaction. It does not necessarily mean that I find something hilarious and not at all offensive.

To use an example from my family. Our ds is called Patrick. When he was tiny, we told FIL that we were thinking of shortening it to Paddy. He very tentatively asked if we would reconsider because it brought back awful memories of being a young Irish immigrant in the early 1960s and being abused and actually on one occasion being beaten up because he was a “Paddy” Of course we agreed. Why wouldn’t we?

Well I repeat ( which I posted earlier ) my DC is 22 , never in dressing up days did people dress up with feathered headdresses , It just wasn't a thing & I think most parents would not have even thought of it. He did go as a cowboy once as Grandma and Grandpa were baby sitting - pretty much a checked shirt and a toy plastic not realistic gun fastened to a belt ( yes yes yes - he had a toy gun) & a neckerchief . The extent of their dressing up , but just a cowboy - it got through dressing up friday & I was grateful to my PILs for doing it. Next time he went as some Dickens chap.

I think it’s you who is making the leap from what is said in the video to deciding that a little girl dressing as Tiger Lily would cause deep offence. As I have said, some of the commentary is merely mocking - about the man with the unnecessarily long loincloth for example. Often the contributors are laughing at their subjects rather than speaking angrily.

Here's the other video that was posted earlier with Native Americans reviewing the costumes.

There's a whole series of similar videos.

@Bertrandrussel - cross post there. Not quite the same point but on another thread where I was speaking about a friend of mine who was fabulously talented , said friend was called Patrick. Fantastic name - I know that was not your main point , but friend was always known as Patrick , never Paddy. Possibly similar reasons.

I don't think there is any leap at all from hearing Native Americans assert that Indian costumes are offensive, to thinking that they would consider dressing a 5 year old up in one to be offensive (whether in England or otherwise).

And we did have an article, earlier in the thread, with a Native American explaining that the character of Tiger Lily is irredeemably offensive. Are we going to read-in the 5-year-old-in-England caveat there too?

Please don't wear Native American costumes does not mean 'Unless you're a child living in England then it's perfectly fine. Also laughing in shock or disgust does not equal approval.

This will fall on deaf ears but regardless here's another video on related matters. 'My culture is not a costume'