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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is it offensive or am I being silly?

999 replies

CocaColaaa · 02/03/2019 15:57

Just a quick one but NC for this as I guess its outing.

My childrens school are doing world book day and the “theme” is peter pan, its given some suggestions of characters you can dress up as and one is tigerlilly. I was thinking of chosing that one for DD as I hate all of the tinkerbell dresses but ive heard its offensive to dress up as certain things. Native americans being on of them. Is it offensive or am I being silly? Why oh why do they have to do themes and not just let people pick their favourite book characters 😩

OP posts:
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CarolinePooter · 04/03/2019 12:18

Your opinion of course. I believed harangued to be pretty accurate, as in, being belaboured with the same opinions over and over again. Self righteousness, pomposity, rudeness. That sort of thing, in my opinion, is not likely to add to friendly and open minded discussion.

TacoLover · 04/03/2019 12:25

I don't understand the Othello arguments. The fact that Othello is not white is part of the plot, hence why it doesn't make sense for a white actor to be playing him. It wouldn't make sense for him to be a target for racist abuse if he's whiteConfused would you suggest that they rewrite the play?

BertrandRussell · 04/03/2019 12:37

I honestly think both “sides” have put their views pretty forcefully. But if i had to award a prize for rudeness it would have to go to the “it’s PC gone mad” people.....

Filbert7 · 04/03/2019 13:17

If anyone takes the time to read the thread back, they'll see that my use of the word 'cunt' (a word I ought not to have used) was aimed at the OP when; after everything that had been said and the buzzfeed videos posted back on page 1, she posted a link to the generic, offensive Indian costume she then intended to buy.

CarolinePooter is just getting her victim on.

outpinked · 04/03/2019 13:21

It’s a book character. People just love to be offended nowadays, it’s bonkers. One of my DDs is going as Fantastic Mr Fox, should I consult the local foxes first?

PickledLimes · 04/03/2019 13:28

What's bonkers is making a comparison between bloody foxes and Native American people who have suffered terribly and continue to suffer terribly from issues such as discrimination, erasure of their cultures, appropriation of their spiritual and meaningful symbols, being removed from their parents, forced off their own land,not being allowed to speak their languages, having their hair forcibly cut etc but we've been there already with the ridiculous comparisons.

CarolinePooter · 04/03/2019 13:31

Filbert, actually I REFUSE to claim victim status, don't put words in my mouth. People out-victiming each other is what causes a lot of ill will. If you can only meet other views with abuse you are no better than the people you criticise.

SenecaFalls · 04/03/2019 13:36

We played a huge part in destroying their people, land, rights and cultures No, we don't get to wash our hands of this issue.

Thanks for pointing this out. I experienced arguments similar to the one you were responding to from people on a thread recently who were defending the display of the Confederate flag at a country-western party in the UK. When it comes to issues related to the enslavement of Africans and to the decimation of Native American peoples, our history is your history too.

Filbert7 · 04/03/2019 13:38

You've been banging on about how I called you a cunt for a while now, when I didn't. You just identified with it and has a pity party.

zippey · 04/03/2019 13:38

It’s the extremists on the left who are saying it’s cultural appropriation.

I think it’s fine, as long as you don’t “brown face” her as well. That would be going a tad far.

One of the fallouts of cultural appropriation issues might be that companies like Disney make fewer films like Moana, Pocahontas etc if it means fewer sales of thier dresses.

BertrandRussell · 04/03/2019 13:39

“actually I REFUSE to claim victim status, don't put words in my mouth. ”

Really? What were you doing when you said you were being harangued, bullies and called a cunt, then?

CarolinePooter · 04/03/2019 13:54

Just pointing out rude behaviour. Not claiming to be a victim. I do not consider myself to be a victim. You have harangued now for a few days, and few are bowing down in capitulation to your superior views. Cunts was plural, so several people on here have been sworn at. I was the ladylike (or foolhardy) one who objected. As I said previously, I have encountered worse bullies than you and survived with my self esteem quite intact, thank you.
It strikes me the "pity party" is all yours.

BasiliskStare · 04/03/2019 14:03

OK - I hope this is a nuance - does e.g. Fiona Shaw playing Richard II count differently. I can see how it would but this is a genuine question re playing someone of different gender etc Or is it the t'other way about so a woman can play the king? Ie redress the balance a bit. A genuine question - please all feel free to ignore as not about race - about gender.

Tonkerbea · 04/03/2019 14:04

This thread has been utterly sobering. The amount of people who just dismissed the issue as "PC gaawn mad" is flabbergasting!
To not understand that dressing up as an embodiment of a crass stereotype might be different to dressing as a character from a race that's not your own is baffling me.

PickledLimes · 04/03/2019 14:04

It's also many Native American people themselves, Zippey, who find it offensive and inappropriate. There are a few videos and articles that have been posted on here of them discussing the issues including reviewing similar costumes. Black/brownface is far from being the only issue either.

PickledLimes · 04/03/2019 14:12
There's another video here where Native American peoples discuss the use of so called Native American costumes. It's interesting to hear their thoughts on the subject. (Disclaimer: I know that they cannot speak for all Native Americans but between numerous articles and videos it appears that a great many Native Americans find these costumes hurtful and offensive.)
whatsthepointthen · 04/03/2019 14:20

I wouldnt have “brown faced” DD that would have been extremely inapropriate and offensive. Like I said we are not white im mixed race and DDs dad is black not that I would have done it if she was white anyway. I dont want to offend anyone so I wont be going with tigerlilly, and I would feel offended if someone dressed their child up as a golly so I dont want to offend anyone in the same way. DD doesnt want to be anyone from peter pan tbh which is why I was looking at outfits on her behalf to show her to see if she liked any.

Pumperthepumper · 04/03/2019 14:31

One of the fallouts of cultural appropriation issues might be that companies like Disney make fewer films like Moana, Pocahontas etc if it means fewer sales of thier dresses.

Why? What if it means that they make more films featuring people of colour whose culture is treated sensitively and is well researched?

BertrandRussell · 04/03/2019 14:51

“OK - I hope this is a nuance - does e.g. Fiona Shaw playing Richard II count differently.”

I think it does. There’s nothing really sex specific in many parts. The thing about Othello is that race is obviously a major theme and and I don’t see how having a white Othello would work.

Thymeout · 04/03/2019 15:03

Orson Welles and Laurence Olivier both played Othello in black-face. I have no objection to black-face when it's relevant to the plot. It might have seemed unfair at a time when black actors weren't cast in white roles, but we've gone far beyond that now. It's quite difficult to find a straightforward, realistic production of Shakespeare. There was a row about this at the Globe a few years ago. As a former English teacher, I've sat through no end of modern-dress productions, with punk witches and actors in SS uniforms. I'm glad I've seen films of great actors like Olivier and Welles playing the role. Just as I am that Glenda Jackson is able to give her interpretation of Lear, or Adrian Lestor (?) can be a black Hamlet.

I don't think there should be a blanket ban on black-face. I think we should aim to be mature enough, as a society, not to need one. It's obvious when it's done to mock and cause offence. Leave Morris dancers alone. (There's lots on this on Google.)

Someone said that the treatment of Native Americans should be taught in schools. My dgd has just done a GCSE History unit on the American West. I recommended an excellent series of detective fiction set on the Navajo Reservation by Tony Hillerman. He's white, but has been awarded the title of Honorary Navajo. It's a gentle introduction to the subject before moving on to classics such as Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, etc.

Btw, when you watch old Westerns, the Native Americans are usually Navajo. (Their reservation is close to Hollywood - it's huge, the size of Wales - and, as a tribe, they are more adventurous and outgoing than some. Read up about the Navajo Code Talkers and the part they played in WW2.) When they're talking Navajo, they're not going 'rhubarb, rhubarb'. They're making rude remarks about the white actors.

CarolinePooter · 04/03/2019 15:08

Thanks Thymeout, good points. Could I heartily recommend the Longmire series of books by Craig Johnson? They are wonderful, I eagerly await each one! There was also a TV series which showed the wonderful scenery described. I will seek out Tony Hillerman.

CarolinePooter · 04/03/2019 15:10

Too many wonderfuls but well deserved!

BertrandRussell · 04/03/2019 15:45

“I don't think there should be a blanket ban on black-face”
Can I ask why not? Apart from anything else, if I was a black actor, the idea of one of the only great specifically black roles going to a white actor would make me furious!

Thymeout · 04/03/2019 15:56

I think that's less relevant now that there can be a black Romeo or a black Macbeth. Black actors may have lost first dibs on being Othello but there are now no limits on the parts that are open to them. Idris Elba as James Bond?

Thymeout · 04/03/2019 15:59

And thanks for your recommendation, too, Caroline. Always on the look-out for new authors.