Is it offensive or am I being silly?

[CocaColaaa]

Just a quick one but NC for this as I guess its outing.

My childrens school are doing world book day and the “theme” is peter pan, its given some suggestions of characters you can dress up as and one is tigerlilly. I was thinking of chosing that one for DD as I hate all of the tinkerbell dresses but ive heard its offensive to dress up as certain things. Native americans being on of them. Is it offensive or am I being silly? Why oh why do they have to do themes and not just let people pick their favourite book characters 😩

Aren't there mermaids in peter pan? You can't offend mermaids because they don't exist

@Filbert7 this is one of those times I wish there was a 'like' button...

As I said, I did say I was uneducated on the subject. Are none native Americans going to be help accountable for the actions of previous generations though? Like white peoples now are monsters because previous white people had black people as slaves or segregated them? Is that our fault? I'd like to think most people are disgusted by those actions, I don't get why someone dressing up a block person would be offensive because of what used to be.

And I obviously am thick/living in a dream world but I've never watched Peter Pan and taken a negative stance from anything, much like most films, I'm sure, I appreciate it's not me the film is offending, but if someone does understand /even realise that offence is there, it might not always be meant? I, and I don't believe a single parent in my children's school would take offence or even think it might be offensive to dress up as tiger lily. So we must all be uneducated.

I don't get why someone dressing up a block person would be offensive because of what used to be.

You don't get it, because you don't understand the culture and history, and it doesn't affect you in the slightest.

All it takes is a little bit of empathy, though.

Now that you've had it explained, can you not see, even a little bit, why some native Americans might find it insensitive (even if everyone's Native American friends on here would be fine with it 🙄)?

it's hilarious - the so called 'easily offended' are actually just considerate people who are trying to be reflective and think about their place in a multicultural world, and the ones who are getting all upset and in a huff are the 'won't catch me pandering to the PC culture, I've been an asshat my whole life, not gonna change now and neither are my children!'

I'd rather be a bleedin' heart lefty than a douche. It costs noting to be kind.

@bananafish hear hear - ignorance is bountiful!

amilosingitor, we don’t know what we don’t know so I appreciate you asking these questions. Filbert7 has done an amazing job of succinctly explaining some history. Does any of that help you to see the harm of negatively stereotyping indigenous peoples? This isn’t ancient history. Mocking and ridiculing oppressed minorities hurts in the present day.

If reading this thread means that someone who might not have understood the harm in dressing up as Tiger Lily would no longer do so then I think that’s great. It is the small things that add up to make the world a better place.

Conversely, every little bit that you give to racism really helps the cause. I love this New Zealand Human Rights commission video with my crush Taika Waititi

I completely get why dressing up as Tiger Lily can be seen as a racist stereotype, because that's what the character was. The quotes from the book show the language used drew a racist stereotype.

With Little black sambo. I actually loved that book - it's something about the tigers with slippers on their ears! But it's the illustrations and the name that were racist? Not the story? Tigers are also from India not Africa so it's rather confusing.

There's another version of the book these days called Little Babaji. Would a WBD costume as Little Babji be ok in theory? I wouldn't do it because of the association with the first book. But in theory would the blue jacket and red trousers and green umbrella be ok?

If not what in theory what would make it ok?

Is dressing up in s national costume ok? Eg we have an alpine Austrian dress with a bodice and sort of pinafore arrangement over a white blouse. They sold them in our hotel as the staff wore them. Are national costumes ok if they weren't an oppressed group. Thinking it through are all stereotypes are discriminatory really. Frenchmen in berets with striped tops and onions?

@amilosingitor I’m presuming you’re referring to me asking someone else (unless you’ve name changed) why they dressed up as Pocahontas for WBD?

Well it primarily confused me because WBD is a day to celebrate books and literature, and dressing up as a character is supposed to be a nod to that. Dressing up as a real person seems to entirely defeat the point of WBD. It made me worry that the person I addressed the message to didn’t actually realise that Pocahontas was a real person...

I also personally wouldn’t dress up as a Native American character/historical figure myself, as due to the massive emphasis on British/European history and literature in Schools I have plenty of Caucasian people I could dress as and hopefully not run the risk of offending anyone. It’s slightly like when people ask why there is Black History Month and ask why there is no White History Month. Because basically every other month in schools is White History Month

I would also strongly advise you to stop using the phrase ‘red indians’. It is highly dated and I imagine fairly offensive to those it concerns. And if it’s the same thread about the phrase ‘throwing a paddy’ that I remember seeing on here then there were also plenty of Irish people who were offended by it from what I remember. So that’s your decision to make, really!

I really hope this post has not seemed patronising to anyone in a Stacey Dooley-esque fashion I was just attempting to answer a question!

Have read most of the thread not sure if anyone has suggested she goes as a mermaid if she doesn't want to be Tinkerbell?

Dressed as a native on a night out. Was a roaring success. Maybe a bit more touchy about natives stateside? Who knows.

You dressed up as a Native? Not as a character that happened to be Native American, but just a 'generic' Native American? Did I get that right?? So basically you went as a stereotype of an entire group of people?

Is it therefore acceptable to dress up as a black person then for fancy dress?

In Peter Pan the racist stereotype is a casual
aside- Tiger Lily is not a main character.It’s not acceptable.

Would it be better if Tiger Lily was a main character and a point was being made about how horrifically native Americans were treated?

Is stereotyping ever ok? The comments upthread mentioned stereotyping the British upper class for example was ok. So literary stereotypes e.g. Lady Bracknell ( Importance of being Earnest ) or Lady Catherine de Burgh ( P and P). are ok. In these books social hierarchy is being critiqued and the Upper classes were the oppressors not the oppressed? These characters would not be ok for children anyway but I’m interested in what is and isn’t ok.

Harry Potter is ok as there’s no stereotyping. What about the Secret garden - there’s a lot of class and disability stereotyping in that?

Negative stereotypes should never be acceptable but are positive ones ok?

I had an experience last year where I went to a small new restaurant launch party. I was invited by an old school friend with a load of people I didn’t know. Another guest was a music teacher and she was talking about her day in front of a group of guests. Basically the gist was she’d be teaching a music lesson at a private rural school and they invited her to a school anniversary picnic. She was saying :“ I’m not bloody going. What with all those parents getting their hampers out of their four wheel drives..and me with my Asda bag. No thanks.” Everyone openly laughed and agreed with her.

I felt very uncomfortable -partly because there was such vehement open agreement. My friend joined in the laughing and her DC and one of mine went to private school (on a scholarship). The stereotypes of parents being mocked could in reality be very diverse, hard working surgeons who save lives, others could have pupils on bursaries or scholarships etc. I felt the public acceptability of the stereotype wasn’t appropriate either -although I regularly do diss Rees Mogg, Johnson etc.

I’ve been trying to think of ways to explain my thinking on this. It’s all about power and privilege, I think. And tact and good manners, obviously.

If you are, however loosely, associated with a group off people who dominated or exploited or treated another group badly, or have more power and privilege than that group,it seems at the very least bad taste to dress up as or imitate the clothing or behaviour of that group.
It could be ethnicity, or wealth or class. The principle remains the same. And there don’t acrually have to be members of the less privileged group present. Particularly when we’re dealing with children- they absorb knowledge and atitudes by osmosis and it becomes part of their “mental furniture” that it’s OK to treat less powerful people disrespectfully.

An example. Our local grammar school has a sort of PGL type week away in year 9. On the Friday, they used to have a “Come as a Chav” party. Social Media meant that this became widely known, and fortunately it doesn’t happen any more. But imagine the complex of feelings this would engender in the young people of the town. And imagine the mind set of the teachers who allowed it to happen

Why does he ask you, "How?"
Why does he ask you, "How?"
Once the Injun didn't know
All the things that he know now
But the Injun, he sure learn a lot
And it's all from asking, "How?"

Hana Mana Ganda
Hana Mana Ganda
We translate for you
Hana means what mana means
And ganda means that too

When did he first say, "Ugh!"
When did he first say, "Ugh!"
In the Injun book it say
When the first brave married squaw
He gave out with a big ugh
When he saw his Mother-in-Law

What made the red man red?
What made the red man red?
Let's go back a million years
To the very first Injun prince
He kissed a maid and start to blush
And we've all been blushin' since

You've got it from the headman
The real true story of the red man
No matter what's been written or said
Now you know why the red man's red

Lyrics to the song sung by the "Native Americans" in Peter Pan. Gibberish demeaning, stereotyping, OFFENSIVE nonsense. If you don't agree, guess what? You're wrong.
Dress her as a mermaid.

(Our school for WBD has asked every child to dress as an adjective. (They included Joy in the suggestion list,so it's not all good, but still!) So much easier!)

So it has something to do with the group that the dresser up belongs to?

Would it be ok for someone of Navajo, Cheyenne, Apache, Cherokee descent to dress as Tiger Lily. But I guess that's the point as they wouldn't choose to?

Why the hell would you want to 'dress up' as a Native American??

Because it's world book day and the theme is Peter Pan?!
Tiger Lily is one of the characters the children have been told to dress as?

they used to have a “Come as a Chav” party.
but that's the entire point. Calling someone a chav is meant to be insulting, so dressing up as a chav is making fun of a certain category of people.
Dressing up as Tigerlily is not mocking her.

“Would it be ok for someone of Navajo, Cheyenne, Apache, Cherokee descent to dress as Tiger Lily. But I guess that's the point as they wouldn't choose to?“
Well, I suppose so. But I suspect they wouldn’t want to. Mind you, the many personally known to fellow Mumsneters would embrace the idea whole heartedly......

I 100% agree it's wrong by the way wrt to Tiger Lily but want to understand more about if costumes especially nation related outfits are ever ok.

So would Little Babaji be ok whereas Little black sambo really wasn't.

Is DDs Austrian alpine outfit ok for anyone or only an Austrian?

Come as a Chav party sounds horrific

Would it be ok for some- one who self identifies as a chav to go as one?

National costumes are always stereotypes, aren’t then? I don’t think many English people would care to be represented on the world stage as a Morris dancer or a bowler hatred business man?

'The world's gone mad' the classic phrase uttered by privileged people who have never experienced discrimination and never thought to consider how those who have might feel. If anyone cares to be enlightened I can recommend Rachel Cargle. She articulates her views on racism and discrimination very well.

lonely I think it’s important to consider the history and power differential. Ridicule is one weapon used against Indigenous people and I’d argue it’s best avoided. Seemingly positive portrayals can be damaging too. The noble savage trope was also a weapon. The idea that there were exceptions to savagery is seriously problematic and is used to justify the worst of colonial actions.

That isn’t to say that stereotyping can’t be offensive or annoying to groups that aren’t oppressed. It’s just not the same level of problem. If someone from NZ decided to dress as a stereotype of an Australian - think corks hanging from hats, some sandpaper and a cricket ball - that might be a bit mean, even provocative (although not completely undeserved). It wouldn’t be racist though. Does that make sense? I’m not sure I’m explaining very well.

“I think it’s important to consider the history and power differential”

Yes, this really is the crux of the matter.