Aibu as a Scottish person, to wonder wtf at the English school admission system?

[irnbruforlife]

Before anyone starts, I know the Scottish school system isn't perfect. But that's a whole other thread. I'm from north east Scotland. Children go to the school for their catchment area. The odd person will ask for a different school for whatever reason (such as bullying etc.) Their request is accommodated do far as reasonably practicable, but not at the expense of someone on that catchment area. There is no school lottery that I seem to be reading about in England, with children ending up with no placement, or having to go to school 2 hrs away despite living across the road from one, or siblings going to different schools.

YANBU, we moved to North East Scotland from England and its absolutely amazing in comparison. I can't believe the English system ever felt normal!

I'm in NE scotland too and I have never known anyone be refused a school place from out of their catchment area or because they want to move schools for whatever reason.

The English system baffles me!

Snap Wappers! Moved from England to NE Scotland too and the move to secondary just happened.

How does it work practically in Scotland if it’s a high birth rate year? Do they just end up with more than 30 children per class?

What happens when popular schools end up with more than 30 kids per class then?

I'm in England and have been reading threads on Secondary transfer with open mouthed horror. Where we live, there are two local schools for which we are in catchment. We looked at both, chose the one we preferred and applied. Didn't bother using our remaining 2 choices, as there was really no doubt that our daughter would be offered a place in our chosen school. I think it really does depend where you live.

YANBU.

I'm also in NE Scotland (sensing a theme here :o) and find threads about English schooling very confusing particularly with applying, earlier starts and different levels rather than just Primary/Secondary!

I've known a few kids to be refused a placing request outside of catchment but only for one particular school as it's seriously oversubscribed and over-rated.

I'm English but have been living in Scotland since I was a teen.

I listen to my English relatives talk with complete amazement. I've no idea how adulthood even works in England and why more people don't break down! It just seems so much harder. The school admissions system, their house buying/selling/renting system - just the works!

I don't understand it all, it seems so brutal. We moved to Scotland before the DC started school and there's no stress, but that might be because our catchment area schools are pretty good.

I’m presuming there are not enough secondary school places to accommodate the number of pupils in England.

Is this also the case in Scotland? If not, then that’s probably why they are different.

Population density is completely different in England. The Scottish system isn't always great- there are schools in Edinburgh and Glasgow which don 't have space for all the catchment children.

Both systems have a lot of fault in them- glass houses and stones comes to mind.

England has areas greater population density than Scotland.

I suspect also in London there is more fluidity of movement.
So ensuring the 'right' amount of school places is harder.
People always end up with a school eventually, as in London many people go private but still apply for state schools. When they turn down the state place it becomes available.

Are schools in Scotland more homgenious in terms of ethos and standards? In England people get to express a preference to get the school they think is best fit. However, sadly, some schools are poor and no one wants them.

In primary we also have a hard limit of 30 and don't go for mixed age groups just to fit children in. I believe the Scottish system is different, but cant remember why.

The grammar system also can cause a lot of angst in those areas that still have them.

Plus, if you read MN education boards, there is a bias of posters towards the more involved parents, so you get a skewed view.

I lived in the north of England with good schools and a sensible feeder/ catchment system. My DC would have been moving to secondary this year and it is pretty painless system.
I think the issues come in when there aren't enough good schools, or in some cases just schools and then stupid lottery systems etc are brought in.

HuntIdeas, here they apply to put an other class into the year or juggle about composites, depending on the best solution for the school.

Huntideas, I'm not entirely sure, perhaps s Scottish school teacher/administrator could say?

@Cheby As most children go to their local school, schools know how many children are likely in each year group years in advance and plan accordingly and rearrange staffing if necessary (p1s are limited to classes of 20).

HuntIdeas and Cheby, generally lower years (1-3) are capped at 25 here. If there are more then they will be split into 2 classes or those with higher reading ability will be put into a composite class (e.g. 1/2).

I suppose there is a limit on how many you can intake but catchment pupils generally cannot be refused.

I know for primary that if there’s a high birth rate the school has to make more classes. Might be the same for secondary. I doubt they’d go over their max class size.

We’ve been allocated a secondary school that 2 buses away. But there are 5 within walking distance. And another 20 just one bus away.

The mind boggles.

How does it work practically in Scotland if it’s a high birth rate year? Do they just end up with more than 30 children per class?

Each school has a potential roll which their building can safely accommodate. Because of the lower population density, most places can take the odd class and a half (so you'd maybe have P1 and P2/1 every so many years) and there are fewer surprises.

Occasionally the council may have to extend schools or put in huts.

If it all goes tits up (as it did in one very popular school in Glasgow a few years ago) parents are forced to choose another school. I can't quite remember what the criteria were for sorting who got a place and who didn't.

We have choice. Scotland does not. Prefer our system.

A Scottish council was in the news this week for raising maximum P2 and P3 numbers to 30 from 25.

Schools can lose ICT suites, libraries, music rooms or any general purpose room to accommodate bigger cohorts than usual.

As others have said, it's to do with population density. Don't worry, it'll get to you too eventually. Give it time.

In some areas there aren't enough school places, not just at desirable schools but at any school.

How does it work practically in Scotland if it’s a high birth rate year? Do they just end up with more than 30 children per class

Primary 1 classes have a maximum of 25 children in my authority area, rising to 30 in P 2 and 3. In my experience if there’s a higher intake the school will have a full P1 and a composite P1/2 class (or multiple P1 classes).

Once enrolment and placing requests are known, the teaching staff at the school are adjusted to accommodate th classes needed, eg a P2 teacher might have a composite P1/2 because some additional P1 spaces are needed etc. Bear in mind many pre-school children go to nursery in their local primary school so between the number of pre-school places, enrolment and placing requests they can predict quite accurately how many children are likely to enter school in August.