Aibu as a Scottish person, to wonder wtf at the English school admission system?

[irnbruforlife]

Before anyone starts, I know the Scottish school system isn't perfect. But that's a whole other thread. I'm from north east Scotland. Children go to the school for their catchment area. The odd person will ask for a different school for whatever reason (such as bullying etc.) Their request is accommodated do far as reasonably practicable, but not at the expense of someone on that catchment area. There is no school lottery that I seem to be reading about in England, with children ending up with no placement, or having to go to school 2 hrs away despite living across the road from one, or siblings going to different schools.

In some areas there just aren't enough school places. Where a family member lives there aren't enough special school places so his child has been out of school for several months.

Thing is, said immigration is not spread evenly throughout the country, so some areas really struggle while others see little/no impact.

YANBU. (England here) Before our local primary expanded, there were people who moved into the village, who had to take their DC to school elsewhere, because they couldn't get into this one, because parents were bringing their DC from miles around. Some parents literally drive past 4 other primary schools to get to this one because this one was perceived to be the best. When I grew up, you just went to your local school, it was unheard of to go elsewhere. I live very close and wouldn't have considered anywhere else, but bought pre DC, pre intention of any DC in fact! so school was not a factor in living here.

Our primary has now been so oversubscribed that they are creating mixed year groups to take in more children and make smaller classes, although a lot are at 30 again already. It is all about the funding, they don't want to turn away any pupils because the money dropped and they now want as many as they can cram in to make up for it.

I dont know how people in England survive full stop. Everything about that country seems broken. Their housing system is a mess with no tenant security or deposit scheme; you have to pay tuition fees at their Universities (9K per year!!!!), and they even have to pay for prescriptions - a teenager died there recently because she couldn;t afford an asthma inhaler.

This nonsense of "applying" for schools and getting accepted - particularly on the basis of how religiously conformist the parents are is quite sinister and a bit creepy really. I mean we do have Catholic schools up here, but its generally known that if you want a "religious" education for your kids thats the place to go...hence why they non-Catholics sometimes send their children there to save them from the heathen influences of the rabble.

I'm a bit shocked tho at the Wee Frees giving assemblies in a "non-denominational" school tho, are there no objections to that from local parents, or are they just glad that they are keeping the Wee Wee Wee Frees at bay?

I'm in central Scotland.

There have been huge issues with schools in one area of my town. They built a massive (think at least a couple of thousand houses) series of new estates with 2 new primary schools but also closed an old school at the same time.

It has been utter chaos, catchment areas are constantly redrawn, siblings are not in the same schools, one bunch of kids are being bussed to another town instead of being able to walk to the local school. Then there is the fact the high school is full to bursting impacting on the other schools in the area.

(there's also problems with GPs, dentists etc)

Generally it is not a problem though, just very bad planning on my local councils part.

“fundamentally it is just a different ball game due to numbers”

Aye, but no...

Yes population density is massively different and has a huge impact, but it’s different ideaology as well.

In England it’s supposed to work like a free market, parents (customers) have free choice so schools that do well are in demand and schools that don’t aren’t, only in a free market a business would go under. With schools there aren’t new ones or spare ones hanging about waiting for pupils, so poor performing schools only have the pupils that literally have no other choices, the ones whose parents are statistically less likely to be able to help with their education and they get worse and worse.

In Scotland if a school performs poorly they come under pressure from parents to improve.

The cities in Scotland are no different in density to those in England. In fact, Edinburgh has the sea on one side and the hills on the other, so can't just spread the way lots of other cities do.

There is a funding difference. In England, schools are rewarded for doing well/punished for doing badly and this entrenches the difference between outstanding and poor schools. Parents are given a single measure to choose by, so all choose the same better one and the school can be selective and this also widens the gap. In Scotland, schools under-performing are given more resources, which keeps the schools much more level. The schools basically represent the catchments, you wouldn't get two schools to choose from that are vastly different (that's why nobody bothers going to Catholic church just to get into the Catholic schools).

I live in an area with schools that are over full - there are problems associated with it, it's not perfect - but it at least feels like the community are all on the same side, petitioning for a new school being built etc. I would hate to feel in competition with my neighbours, bitter about them having a sibling and being prioritised, that sort of thing. The English system all feels a bit divide and conquer, getting people angry at someone renting in the catchment then moving, instead of the stupid rules that push people to do that.

Cailleachian all rental deposits have to be legally protected and put in a scheme? and all tenants sign a 6 month minimum tenancy?

I don't agree with us having to pay for prescriptions though, when Scotland and Wales don't. They are soon going up to £9 per prescription, so if you need more than one thing........ you can't afford to be ill! I take blood pressure meds, so will have to do a prepayment card from April as I won't be able to get another WTC exemption next year.

@Cailleachian

I'm a bit shocked tho at the Wee Frees giving assemblies in a "non-denominational" school tho, are there no objections to that from local parents, or are they just glad that they are keeping the Wee Wee Wee Frees at bay?

Generally in non denominational schools the default assumed is Church of Scotland. I am an atheist but chose not to object when the local minister would come in and talk to the kids and they would go to the church across from the school for services. It's one of those battles I didn't think was worth fighting.

I would have probably strongly objected to the wee frees though, but they are a tiny minority here.

I bet there would be outrage if they assumed the kids should go to Muslim services, so I don't see why they take them to CofS as standard.

We have choice No you don’t. Judging by how many posts there are about people not getting the school they want, that’s not having a choice. The same “choice” exists here, you can request a placement in a different school and if it isn’t full you will get the place. The difference is, we automatically have a place at our catchment school no matter what.

Does scotland have lots religious schools?
Far more common down here than up in the N.E. I can’t recall any which weren’t private back when I lived up there. Where I am in the Central belt has 3 just in our smallish town.

Population density is completely different in England. The Scottish system isn't always great- there are schools in Edinburgh and Glasgow which don 't have space for all the catchment children.
This old chestnut? The vast majority of Scotland’s population lives in and around our two major cities. The system works well whether it’s in inner city Glasgow or rural Highlands. There have been a really small number of issues with schools which couldn’t accommodate local children. This was because of a particular decision by the LA and not because of the system.

Our LA already knows how many children are projected to be at the schools over the next 10 years and has a plan for extending the schools which require it.

What you tend to find is that school performance is then linked to catchment area - the better performing schools are in areas with a higher income... poorer performing ones in lower income areas - but it’s not quite a direct correlation because some schools over or under perform.
Another reason that there isn’t such a wide variance in performance is, catchments have always been designed around including a wider mix of backgrounds. It’s quite uncommon for a school to have only wealthier areas in the catchment. There was a bit of a controversy where I lived when DD was about to start school. The new build estate we lived in was put in the catchment of a low performing school in an area of primarily social housing. The parents in the estate were really pissed off and a heap of them placed requests out of catchment. But most didn’t, and not only did their children not suffer, but the overall attainment of the school has risen and continues to do so. The Authority looks very carefully at catchments to try to get a good mix.

Also, Scotland gets 20% more funding from the treasury per head than England do. That probably helps.

It’s because all state schools in Scotland are council (LEA) controlled that they can and must respond to birth rate changes and new house building etc. If the council grants planning permission for new houses they must provide school places. It’s joined up.

The biggest change here has been polish immigration changing the catholic vs non denom balance but that’s to the benefit of the catholic schools whose rolls were dropping before the polish arrived.

Every house or flat is in catchment for one catholic and one non denom school which MUST accept you even if that means more teachers, more classrooms, or even an annexe or a new build school.

Immigration is very different in different parts of the country...

I’m in the central belt, there’s been a fairly high (for Scotland) amount of Eastern European immigration over the last decade, but in my LEA, you’re looking at no more than 2 or 3 pupils per school per year. Mostly it’s young adults looking for work who then settle down and their children are born here.

In Scotland all rental deposits must be lodged with one of two schemes run by the government. If a landlord doesnt do this, the tenant can claim up to 3 times the value of the deposit. There is no such thing as a "no-fault" eviction in Scotland, the landlord must give a reason for the eviction, basically so long as you pay your rent it is extremely difficult for a landlord to evict you so effectively any tenancy is indefinite.

Charging people for prescriptions is horrific, and must put added pressure on the NHS, where people cant afford medication to manage their health properly, so storing up longer term health issues.

oh the house prices is another thing that baffles me.

My 3 bed, 2 bath, 1 garage detached house was £160,000 when I bought it but in the majority of areas in England, it would cost at least £250,000

So many English houses are terraced or semi with no off road parking or garage or decent garden unless you want to pay a LOT. I wonder how anyone manages to get a decent house. their mortgages must be ridiculous.

And the offers on houses - up here it's pretty easy to get a house under the asking price, and fixed price is also pretty common, but I hear that in England houses always have lots of bidders and over the asking price.

Its just all very confusing.

I'm in England, and I agree - the schools admissions system is awful. Stressful and unfair.

At present, at least children get offered a place somewhere. 18 years ago, my ds applied to 4 schools and wasn't offered a place in any of them. Four or five of his school friends were in the same situation. Phoned up the council and asked 'what do we do now?'. The reply was 'we will prosecute if they don't attend school'.

PlainSpeakingStraightTalking Sat 02-Mar-19 13:17:38
We have choice. Scotland does not. Prefer our system.

No we don't. We are able to express a preference. Big difference.

As it happens, our local authority operates a feeder system for secondary, so all children are basically guaranteed a place in the school their primary feeds into. It's only those who prefer schools they're really too far away from who would miss out on their preference, particularly if it's a high birth year cohort.

I live in the NE of England and most of what’s being described with horror as the “English” experience is the London/SE experience. It’s not reflective of the rest of the country.

At present, at least children get offered a place somewhere. 18 years ago, my ds applied to 4 schools and wasn't offered a place in any of them.

I am on the secondary school allocations thread-there are people there who have not been offered any school places!

tabula for sure it's not the only reason
but it is definitely a very large part of the reason

reading on here it seems that around england it's not normally so bad
lots of people still going to local schools
in rural areas you don't have lots of schools you have a local one or 2 and that's where the kids go

teh situation in london is completely different

my biggest bugbear is the religion thing

for a child not to be able to attend any local schools because they are the "wrong" religion (or none) while kids are driven in from further away is nuts

the league tables thing also fucked it proper - when I was a child most kids went to their local primary (or private)
the population was maybe less dense and there was less movement back then, not sure

there are a lot of factors and I don't think disregarding any of them is the right way to look at this problem

“I wonder how anyone manages to get a decent house. their mortgages must be ridiculous.“

There’s loads of areas in England with perfectly fine priced housing... just not in the same place all the people want to live.

that's why nobody bothers going to Catholic church just to get into the Catholic schools
To be fair, that does happen in some areas, but it isn’t as big a problem for sure.

Generally in non denominational schools the default assumed is Church of Scotland. I am an atheist but chose not to object when the local minister would come in and talk to the kids and they would go to the church across from the school for services. It's one of those battles I didn't think was worth fighting.
This is one aspect of the school system which really bugs me. Again, it happens more in Central than in the North East. I wish they didn’t do it but like you decided not to pull DD from them. At 9 she’s formed her own opinion on what they teach but loves hear stories so just treats it as story time.

Scotland spends 20% more per person on public services vs England. It's about 10% more per year overspend Vs income.
This is a deliberate choice to enhance support to areas of the UK where the need is greater.

So I would hope they have a better system.

Or rather better provision and less stretch in the system.

YANBU. I’m Australian and when people started with this nonsense my first reaction was wtf they must be exaggerating. The system was so complicated (not to mention that as a non-Christian family of renters it seemed stacked against us) that it made state schooling seem wholly unviable as a option for us. Our kids would probably be going to a very poor state school and switching every do often if we used state schools. No thanks.