Aibu as a Scottish person, to wonder wtf at the English school admission system?

[irnbruforlife]

Before anyone starts, I know the Scottish school system isn't perfect. But that's a whole other thread. I'm from north east Scotland. Children go to the school for their catchment area. The odd person will ask for a different school for whatever reason (such as bullying etc.) Their request is accommodated do far as reasonably practicable, but not at the expense of someone on that catchment area. There is no school lottery that I seem to be reading about in England, with children ending up with no placement, or having to go to school 2 hrs away despite living across the road from one, or siblings going to different schools.

You're not comparing like with like though.
If you go by catchment in England there are many areas which are over subscribed so don't have the places.
There are also many areas with tiered systems so that confuses the issue. For example, grammar schools.
It all causes disparities in intake of children, and then affects results and Ofsted gradings and then people move to the 'better' school catchments and it continues.
Those who can't move are stuck but they are generally those who are less well off, and often have less education and so the cycle continues.
I would not want to send my children to the local secondary as it appears (from teachers as well as what I've seen), that it's a containment centre rather than education. But we have a grammar system so it's to be expected that the exam results will be skewed as the comp schools are not really comp schools.
It is awful, but would need a massive and radical change, which is not supported by those who have money to have options (and they are often those who also have a voice).

In my area of Scotland there has been lots of new schools built. My DS goes to a large school with 60 primary one children split into 3 classes of 20.

The English system also baffles me. Here you apply for the school you are closest to and get a place. Even the next closest school to the one my DS is at would only be a 10 minute walk.

The pupils at certain primary schools are then guaranteed a place at the high school attached to their school. They can choose a different one if they want though but most probably don't.

We have choice. Scotland does not.

Aye we do. You an apply to go to a different school, and it's usually accommodated. We have classes smaller than 30 and kids not being forced to take 2 buses when there are several schools on the doorstep, you don't.

YANBU

The whole publishing results / choosing thing has turned it into a massive stressful fight.

Also as PP said, population density can't help, I live in London and it's a nightmare. There are just so many people here, the pan london admissions thing is a feat of admin I mean to work out all the lists cross check with schools work down preferences for 1000s of children is a massively complex task!

Another real problem here in my area is the prevalence of religious schools that you have to be the "right" religion and practicing to get in. And there are loads of them. I have 4 primary schools in walking distance ALL are based on religious entry criteria. 2 CofE 2 Catholic. If you're Muslim or Hundu or Jewish you're fucked then aren't you. .And ditto down the road where lots of the schools are Jewish. I find this makes things incredibly difficult and IMO is v divisive. It also puts paretns in all sorts of binds > rediscover a bit of religion for a few years (for those that aren't checking from when the baby was born) OR get a school the other side of the borough in the oppostie direction to work and an extra hour commute etc etc

I really think it would be better if everyone went to their local school. The kids can walk to school (healthy) and there is more of a mix of backgrounds.

There are similar difficulties with secondaries round here as well.

And also in our area at least, they can't just create a larger or composite class. Particularly now that we have so many academies. The LA used to be able to have some sway but not now.
There's no funding for more teachers and schools which were smaller to start with were often closed or reduced during low birth years with no though to future years.
It is a bit of a mess but has been done like this over a number of years.

There’s a huge amount of choice in Scotland. I didn’t go to my catchment high school and my children don’t go to their catchment primary school - I was able to choose from half a dozen schools and find the one that best suited their needs. I could have got a place for them at any one of those schools, it was literally my choice where I sent them.

Or maybe you have a different definition of choice.

I’m totally baffled by it too. I live in a very densely populated area of Glasgow and have never known anyone to have an issue getting a place in a school.

You do have choice in Scotland - total choice. I work in a popular secondary school and I can count on one hand the number of placing requests which don’t get accepted. You just do generally get where you want. We are under pressure from authorities to accept everyone frankly so we occasionally do run over which needs extra staffing and accommodation.

I think schools are a bit more much of a muchness in Scotland as well which means people are not so bothered unless there are mitigating circumstances.

Our population density allows it to be like this. I don’t think it is more complex than that really

We have classes smaller than 30

No we don't.

www.gov.scot/publications/summary-statistics-schools-scotland-8-2017-edition/pages/5/

In 2017, there were 20,997 children classes smaller than 20. 106,023 children in classes between 19-25, 44, 340 children in classes between 26 and 30 and 625 in classes of 31 or more.

We have choice. Scotland does not. Prefer our system

Scotland does have choice. You choose the school you want to go to, apply and the majority of the time it's accepted. In my primary school class for example we all branched off into 4 different high schools despite some of my friends being outwith the catchment area for the schools they chose. We had 5 high schools in my town with another 4 in the next towns but still within a 20 minute drive and people pretty much got whichever school they wanted.

I don't understand the English system at all as I grew up in Scotland and my children have gone through the Scottish system. I grew up in one area of Scotland, my children somewhere else, but the systems were identical. You go to your local primary and then the primaries are feeder schools for the secondaries, so you go to whichever secondary school your primary feeds into with all your classmates. It really is as simple as that. The English angst about school admissions just does not happen and so I am completely baffled by it - it sounds so unnecessarily complex.

Big stooshie in Glasgow/ East Ren last year (or was it the year before?) with placing requests being rejected.

Another real problem here in my area is the prevalence of religious schools that you have to be the "right" religion and practicing to get in. And there are loads of them. I have 4 primary schools in walking distance ALL are based on religious entry criteria. 2 CofE 2 Catholic. If you're Muslim or Hundu or Jewish you're fucked then aren't you. .And ditto down the road where lots of the schools are Jewish. I find this makes things incredibly difficult and IMO is v divisive. It also puts paretns in all sorts of binds > rediscover a bit of religion for a few years (for those that aren't checking from when the baby was born) OR get a school the other side of the borough in the oppostie direction to work and an extra hour commute etc etc

This is nuts. In Glasgow you will get a Catholic and non-denomination school in each catchment. Anyone can go the the Catholic school, Muslim, Jewish, atheists, whatever.

I listen to my English relatives talk with complete amazement. I've no idea how adulthood even works in England and why more people don't break down! It just seems so much harder. The school admissions system, their house buying/selling/renting system - just the works!

The population of England is ten times that of Scotland, with a population density more than four times greater. England is possibly the most densely populated country in Europe. That's going to have an impact. More people in a smaller space all wanting schools, houses, etc etc.

Plus population growth and movement have been unpredictable; it hasn't been possible to say where extra school places will be needed in 3/5/10 years time.

Also in NE Scotland! House-buying is another thing that seems bloody awful in England! Must be due an overhaul surely??

Don't think that the school admission shenanigans reported on mumsnet is reflected across all of England. I think in our area they reported 94% got their first choice.

Was the problem with place request not because East Ren keep changing their boundaries? I know there have been issues if you live between Giffnock and Thronliebank.

Does scotland have lots religious schools? There are non round where I live, i couldn't say for everywhere else. The only 'divide' I am probably aware of is state vs private, and that's a non issue for mostly everyone I know.

In 2017, there were 20,997 children classes smaller than 20. 106,023 children in classes between 19-25, 44, 340 children in classes between 26 and 30 and 625 in classes of 31 or more.

In fairness under 1,000 children out of nearly 170,000 in class sizes bigger than 25 isn’t bad. My teaching friends in England say they’d be delighted with the vast majority of classes being under 25 kids.

I’m totally baffled by it too. I live in a very densely populated area of Glasgow and have never known anyone to have an issue getting a place in a school.

But how quickly is that population growing? In England it has grown so fast that services such as health, housing and education have been unable to keep pace with it over the years. Hence the health, housing and education crises.

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong I'm sure but a lot of the angst and anxiety over school places on MN is London based

This is because of shrinking catchments for state due to highly populated areas

In other parts of the country if you don't get the state you want it is fairly simple (if you can afford it) to send your child private

But in London there is also FIERCE competition for fee paying places/scholarships and selection based schools.

So it can be perfectly possible to be out of catchment for your nearest state by like a street, have your child miss out on a selective place by one or two points, to be unable to afford the extremely prestige private or for them to be full, and just be dumped at a random school you've never seen.

(Disclaimer : This is all information I have gleaned from this forum )

In Scotland they keep an eye on birth rates and plan accordingly, they also extend schools or build new schools if housing is built (it doesn’t always go to plan right enough, but there will be a plan to educate children moving into new developments.)

You can choose to request a placement in a school other than your catchment area one, if it’s not oversubscribed your child will get in, so there is an element of choice.

What you tend to find is that school performance is then linked to catchment area - the better performing schools are in areas with a higher income... poorer performing ones in lower income areas - but it’s not quite a direct correlation because some schools over or under perform.

And no, not all schools are equal... but you don’t get sink schools in the same way as apart from a few schools in cities most pupils do just go to their local school, which means parents are invested in improving that school rather than trying to get the best one.

Schools also can’t opt out of things, so there’s none of this - apply for this school if your DC has an ASN/SEN... if your child is in mainstream, your local school must provide the education they need.

In fairness under 1,000 children out of nearly 170,000 in class sizes bigger than 25 isn’t bad

There's an extra space in there, sorry- 44,340 children in classes of 26-30. The majority are in classes of 19-25, which is a good thing, but when big promises were made around class sizes...

How does it work practically in Scotland if it’s a high birth rate year? Do they just end up with more than 30 children per class?

They mix about making composite classes or plonk a portacabin in the playground!

Another Scot who reads threads with angst-filled parents over school choices like .

Up until very recently, placing requests have almost always been granted. In some areas, this really can't be guaranteed any more. Our local catchment secondary is very popular, high-achieving, lovely modern building with great facilities. But it's full to bursting as a consequence of people moving into catchment for schools, and new houses being built. Your chances of getting in now on a placing request are slim to nil.

But catchments are static and don't change. I think it needs an act of parliament or something to change catchment areas, it's certainly not an easy process. Catchment areas haven't changed round here for at least 20 years. You can look up maps online and know that if you buy a house in Aberdeen Avenue your children will go to X school, or if you buy in Reading Road, they'll go to Y school. Unless you ask for alternative arrangements.

There is choice. But you ALWAYS get a place at your catchment school. None of this "allocated a school 15 miles away" or "haven't been allocated a school at all" nonsense.