Aibu as a Scottish person, to wonder wtf at the English school admission system?

[irnbruforlife]

Before anyone starts, I know the Scottish school system isn't perfect. But that's a whole other thread. I'm from north east Scotland. Children go to the school for their catchment area. The odd person will ask for a different school for whatever reason (such as bullying etc.) Their request is accommodated do far as reasonably practicable, but not at the expense of someone on that catchment area. There is no school lottery that I seem to be reading about in England, with children ending up with no placement, or having to go to school 2 hrs away despite living across the road from one, or siblings going to different schools.

Also scotland has more areas which are quite thinly populated & can be tricky to get to thinking the islands

Delivering public services in areas like that is more expensive per head than in areas where people are closer together

So while the spend might be more per head again it's about logistics, more expensive to deliver the services in the first place

we have had issues with this in UK with bus privatisation and then them decimating the routes where not so many people lived and only serving the main connections
they had put some rules in but of course the companies were into profit and so did the min allowed

disgressing

privatisation always fucks things up
look what's just happened with the probation servce it's a scandal

Scotland gets 20% more funding from the treasury per head than England do. That probably helps
Why is that relevant to how the catchment system works?

@Yabbers

In terms of creating new schools/school places in response to demand it's probably quite helpful.

“Delivering public services in areas like that is more expensive per head than in areas where people are closer together”

Yep, I went to a secondary school where Some of the pupils had to board, most just Monday to Friday but some for the term because they lived on islands, some of the buses for the mainland pupils were doing 80 mile round trips, none of that is free.

It’s also an area where you’re transported to a city for delivery if it’s a first pregnancy or there are/or likely to be complications and airlifting people to hospitals isn’t uncommon...

Everything costs more to deliver.

Exactly. Where the issue is number of places at least part of that will be helped by extra cash.

This is partly why a fairly spread out population can have enough places.

Of course the idiocy of the free school policy doesn't help in England either...

The problem in England is the high population, this has been caused by the Hugh numbers of foreign immigrants.
These immigrants tend to have large family's, most of the women who gave birth in London last year were themselves born overseas, this is causing all kinds of problems in English towns and cities.
Schools, hospitals, doctors, housing, transportation, policing, crime.
I no longer live in London but have family and friends who do, they are all trying to move away due to these problems.

I’ve lived in both (south east) England and (north east) Scotland, and honestly both systems have their pros and cons. The biggest downside I think in Scotland, is that poorer schools have less incentive to improve. Especially those that primarily serve deprived areas, and so will statistically likely have fewer engaged parents. The issue of the best schools being in the most expensive areas, and that cycle continuing as the good schools get better, and the poor schools get worse, I think applies in both. I do agree that the English system is much more stressful though.

What some people seem to think of as "clever planning by watching birth rates" is simply the result of a flatlining or declining population with very limited immigration (Scottish population 1971: 5,229,000 - Scottish population 2011: 5,295,000) and existing facilities working for the numbers. The population of Greater London grew 1 million from 2001 to 2011.

Having more money per head is to balance out the rural/urban mix - land wise Scotland isn't that much smaller - it doesn't equate to someone in a city having more spent on them.

In fact, it probably costs a lot for a council to transport kids to faraway schools, deal with the traffic and parking problems associated with people attending schools that aren't walking distance, dealing with endless appeals for places and keeping up with being constantly responsible for people moving areas (in Scotland it is the school's problem if someone moves into your catchment).

England used to have the same system Scotland does now, this isn't something that indicates one country is better than another, it indicates that one country made a choice which had unintended consequences. Giving people the illusion of choice, whilst giving people one measure by which to make that choice, and schools having different criteria so some people are prioritised, will lead to a more divided system that functions less well overall.

For example, giving people the choice of which hospital/doctor at the expense of the health service as a whole, is an idea that should really look at what has happened. Nobody in Scotland is clamouring to introduce this school choice system, are they, what are the indicators that it's a great idea - that it might win votes?

I wish it was the way it is in scotland.

I live in London and need to move house this year so it's a nightmare. My son isn't even 1 and i've stepped up my church attendance, researched how to home school (which luckily would be no problem) and know the rough distances needed for all the good schools around us. Ironically one of the more socially mixed ones would be ideal for DS but we live about 4/500m away. So he will probably end up in a strictly MC church school when the socially mixed one would be ideal.

If it was the scottish catchment system at least i would know what house we can afford as atm i don't know whether i will need to quit my job to HS so that adds to the stress. It just makes life more stressful for parents uneccessarily

Except that Scotland has low numbers of immigration but still faces pressure on schools, hospitals, doctors, local services. Attributing it solely to immigration is sensationalist at best.

most of the women who gave birth in London last year were themselves born overseas, this is causing all kinds of problems in English towns and cities. Looking at the statistics for births in England and Wales for 2017, that cannot possibly be true.

We do also pay more tax in Scotland - and that gap is increasing. I am not a high earner and in theory I pay roughly £2k per year more tax than someone on the same wage as me in England (except I chuck in my pension as that is tax efficient).

The biggest downside I think in Scotland, is that poorer schools have less incentive to improve.

Less of a financial incentive maybe, but as with all schools it is down to the quality of the management team. No self respecting head teacher wants to run a crap school!

tabulahrasa I think the "free market" style also means England has a lot more experimental schools like the studio schools, university technical colleges, and other "free schools" and the confusion some of these academies are causing (I know infant and junior schools that are literally on the same site but have become part of different academy trusts).

It feels like everything is constantly changing, but remaining the same at the same time. My area has gotten 3 new free schools - a primary, a UTC, and a secondary - in the last few years and while once again parents are crossing their fingers that the latest one will bring the change the area needs for our kids, the first two are pretty much like the other failing schools in our area - and one looks like it's going to close.

Even our local college keeps bringing in courses for 14-16 year olds because there is a demand with the lack of places and a desire for vocational courses, but they're constantly changing. What was there two years ago is entirely different now and they're hoping to bring in new stuff for this fall if they can get the numbers. That and the changing schools make it really difficult to plan, I constantly feel like I'm having to update what's going on to know what others are talking about or what's available and wondering if it still be there in a year or two and waiting to see if this or that is actually going to happen.

That alongside the remaining grammar system in some parts, it does feel very complicated and messy at times. Sometimes I think it's just because I'm an immigrant that I get so lost in it all, but then I know plenty of my friends who have lived in or near this city their whole lives who are just as confused and frustrated as I am.

We have just been through the madness of London secondary school admissions and I agree with you.

It is stressful, each school does things differently. Some do distance, some lottery, many have x% of places allocated on musical, language, maths, sports aptitude, some have ability places. It did have the desired outcome for us, I still found it stressful and the kids do, too. It must a a million times worse if at the end of all that stress, you end up with a place at a a bad school.

most of the women who gave birth in London last year were themselves born overseas, this is causing all kinds of problems in English towns and cities.

Looking at the statistics for births in England and Wales for 2017, that cannot possibly be true.

Here it is from the Office of National Statistics. Go down to Section 8 for regional variations.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/bulletins/birthsummarytablesenglandandwales/2017

“I think the "free market" style also means England has a lot more experimental schools”

Well yes, Scotland the last I know of (I’m not in education anymore) doesn’t do free schools at all.

That’s why I was saying it’s an ideological difference, I’m not discounting immigration or population density at all... but underlying it all are very big differences about what education is and what it’s for - that affect how it’s implemented.

Oh the free schools shitshow

Where companies that are asset strippers have been given schools to run, taken all the money including fundraising, then closed down

Why is this story gone quiet

Also free schools opening in areas where they aren't needed etc

It's all caused complication and confusion

Then we have extreme religious schools of various flavours not giving children decent education, this is flagged periodically but nothing seems to happen. This area is extreme Christian and Jewish schools.

Loads of problems to be honest.

Many exaggerated in London.

Although every child has a catchment school in Scotland the local authority only has a legal obligation to educate within the council area. If a school is popular with catchment pupils then they will employ an additional teacher or create composite classes (primary) or redirect to another school in council area until a place becomes available. They only do this for catchment pupils but not pupils who live outside council area

I think that's the crux of it - here in Scotland we have the same entrance criteria across the state sector, throughout the country.

Private schools do their own thing, just as they do elsewhere.

But there are no grammars, no free schools, no schools which are outside council control in other ways. We don't have academies either - we might have schools known as X Academy, but that's just a name, not anything to do with their funding status.

I agree it's an ideological shitshow, the free schools are just another part of it that has added more uncertainty and mess with admissions and education in general. It's frustrating that it seems to be continuing on as it is with little signs that it is improving either the education in the areas or encouraging any of the already there schools to improve. It amazes me how little seems to be discussed in the wider media and things on this issue.

Seems to be a fair few of us from NE Scotland. My kids go to the local primary then onto the catchment high school. My youngest is in a large year group but the classes are split over 2 years. Last year he was in P1/2 and he is in the same this year but with a different teacher. I couldn't be done with the hassle that there seems to be in England.

Here in Hampshire, over 98% of pupils got one of their choice schools

over 92% (13,273 kids) got their first choice
nearly 5% for their second choice
only 268 kids
in a county with a population of nearly 2 million
did not get one of their choices

I see no problems with the English system as it works here

I live in a relatively small city in the South of England. My local secondary has a PAN of 270 with approximately 2000 pupils, including the sixth form, but last year they took 285 children into year 7 and 49 children who live in the catchment (and put it as a preference) did not get a place. The distance the last child admitted lived from the school was 1.5 miles. Those 49 children wanted to go to their catchment school, but there just wasn't enough places for them and no room for expansion - how would the Scottish system make any difference?

My violence worth:

In Glasgow the Hillhead/Gaelic School outrage rolled on for enough years that parents could state with conviction it's not an anomaly. The council responded and there's now, what, 3 Gaelic schools.

Non-dom and RC schools being next door neighbour often sharing playground is state sponsored hatred breeding. "Mummy, am I dirty?" WTF?! This needs to stop and I never understand why there isn't more outrage.

Rural areas and cities all know ×/- the number of kids coming there way in 5 years.

There's a huge drive to close the attainment gap. This is what universal FSM is about.

Lots of teachers despise the SNP, particularly Cab Sec for education.

I could never be a teacher and if you're one you aren't paid enough.