Aibu as a Scottish person, to wonder wtf at the English school admission system?

[irnbruforlife]

Before anyone starts, I know the Scottish school system isn't perfect. But that's a whole other thread. I'm from north east Scotland. Children go to the school for their catchment area. The odd person will ask for a different school for whatever reason (such as bullying etc.) Their request is accommodated do far as reasonably practicable, but not at the expense of someone on that catchment area. There is no school lottery that I seem to be reading about in England, with children ending up with no placement, or having to go to school 2 hrs away despite living across the road from one, or siblings going to different schools.

Em tuppence auto corrected to violence!

no idea what you mean by PAN.

In Scotland, there might be just one secondary school in a similar, relatively small city. The catchment of that secondary school is defined. Similarly, primary school catchments are defined. So right from when the children start primary 7 years before, the Council knows that there is a "bulge" year. More children than usual.

They might usually admit 210 children into the secondary each year. (7 classes of 30). That could be, for example, 190 children living in the catchment and another 30 whose parents have put in placing requests.

If one year there are 240 children living in the catchment, all eligible to start at the school in that year, then the school would create 8 x 30 place classes rather than 7. No placing requests would be granted whatsoever. They would employ more teachers, or create temporary classrooms if needed.

In practice though, this rarely happens. My daughter's year (children who started senior school in 2017) was a bulge year by our standards, yet all children living in catchment got it. All it meant that people living outside catchment yet hoping for a place didn't get it. But still had a senior school place at their catchment secondary.

no idea what you mean by PAN
Its the number of kids per year the school has capacity for ....

DCs primary was PAN of 30 (1 class per year)
Secondary was PAN of 300 (10 classes per year)
6th form was PAN of 1800 (lots and lots of classes per year)

I live in the midlands and chose our catchment school for both primary and secondary. I have not known anyone not get in to their catchment school round here.

Problems tend to arise where parents choose a school which is further away and perceived better. Sometimes they don't put a second or third choice, presumably meaning if their one choice is full, they get placed last - after everyone who put more options has been placed.

Locally, there is a catholic school which can be popular and has a religious criteria for admission. There is a non denominational school practically next door. My son went to a cofe primary which works on the LA criteria.

Friends further south seem to have more problems.

People seem to forget that there is much more to England than Londonn and surrounding area. Similarly house prices are more reasonable up here etc etc

We don't have that concept though. The number of children a school takes every year will vary.

For example, when my first child started at the local primary, the intake that year was about 48. By the time DD started 2 years later, there were 62 of them. third child's year is around 52.

Because DD's year was so much bigger, school made composite classes further up the school, and repurposed a room which was being used as a music/art room into a classroom.

Similarly, the local secondary usually takes 210. 7 classes of 30. But if there were all of a sudden 300 children all living in catchment and all wanting a place, they'd have to take them. They couldn't just redraw the boundary and refuse 90 of them.

In Scotland, there might be just one secondary school in a similar, relatively small city

Our ideas of relatively small are obviously very different! I'm talking population of around 165,000.

silene
We have catchments and yes, the school sizes flex
DCs school I believe now has a PAN of 330 ie another class
PAN is normally the upper limit

AllPizzas
In Ireland there are three secondary schools for a town of 2000 people (Catholic Boys, Catholic Girls, community)
the rules vary all over the place

I think it depends entirely where you live.

I'm in Cumbria where you're pretty much guaranteed a place at your catchment school.

The only applications that tend to get turned down are where you're out of catchment and the school is over subscribed.

This time round the LEA have stated that almost 95% of applications were offered their first choice.

I find all the threads about English school places strangely fascinating. I do get that it's the minority who are not getting the places they wanted and it's not representative of England as a while, but for those in the thick of it it sounds very stressful.
Scottish secondary education is far from perfect right now either right enough. I disagree with Catholic (or other faith) schools. I disagree with Gaelic schools in areas of the country where no-one ever spoke Gaelic anyway. You should go to your local school and that's that. Fair for everyone, keeps things on a level playing field for everyone. Unless you opt out and pay.

It doesn't really matter about definitions of PAN or sizes of schools though as the concept is the same. Catchments are fixed and don't change.

Schools have a legal obligation to take all children living in their catchment area. Secondaries have 7 years to prepare for this. Primary schools could in theory be caught out by children who aren't in the nursery system locally and are "off the radar", and pitch up in the January before starting in August eligible for a space.

Schools have no legal obligation to take children who don't live in their catchment. If they have extra spaces, they will be happy to do so and the Council sets the admission criteria to rank placing requests - varies by area but usually siblings, looked after children, living in the same council area, as the crow flies and so on. If you are successful in a placing request for an out-of-catchment school for your Primary education, you are told that you have to go through the same process again for secondary and that your place is not guaranteed.

But really, apart from a few well-publicised exceptions where the council has screwed up by allowing massive house building and not increased school provision, it's not an issue. Children all get a place at their catchment school.

I’m a school governor of a secondary in a Greater London borough. Population density is a huge part of the equation. Our local council has known for years that our borough will need two new secondary schools (as 7 years ago they had to open new primary schools and permanently add new classes on to the existing ones) but there is just no space. The plot of land needed to build a new secondary school is significant and there just isn’t spare land. So over the years all the existing schools have been pressured to add new buildings to expand so now there is no longer enough playground space to put a temporary classroom down. We’re about to enter the secondary application process. We live too far away from our nearest 5 schools (all of which are less than 1.5 miles away) all of which are 9-10 form entry (so 270-300 children). It’s hard to comprehend population density in Greater London. Drawing catchments around schools simply wouldn’t work as there is far too much year on year volatility and no capacity to expand to include it.

Silene
But really, apart from a few well-publicised exceptions where the council has screwed up by allowing massive house building and not increased school provision, it's not an issue. Children all get a place at their catchment school.
You know that Councils are not normally allowed to build new schools?

I think Sctoland and many parts of England are fairly similar eg in Northumberland and some other parts of the NE (and Cumbria as someone state above) and probably many bigts of Cornwall and Devon etc you will have the one school people go to simply because it's quite rural and there are not the choices. Move instead to Edinburgh, London, Manchester and you have all kinds of different schools and parents having a choice over them.

YANBU

When we moved to the US our relocation agent looked at us as if we were mad when we asked whether in-year admissions would be difficult for the local schools. It's just very simple - if you live in X road you go to Y school. Very few variations (usually disability related or exceptional circumstances). Class sizes between 18 and 22 (parents got grumpy when a couple of classes went up to 23!! )

As far as I can tell, they are able to manage this by having huge schools (our elementary school had 120+ in each grade, and 9 grades) so far more ability to absorb population changes and flex their resources, rather than lots of little schools dotted around which are vulnerable to big changes

Here it is from the Office of National Statistics. Go down to Section 8 for regional variations.
Nope. Still can’t see where it states that.

But "choice" is often just stress
most people would much rather that EVERY school was properly resourced and funded and assessed
and then they could let their kids go to the nearest school
with a happy conscience

The competition for places in "good" schools is a city / town thing.
I live rurally and there is one upper school. Everyone gets in because they have to! It caters to about 25 villages/ hamlets and outlying farms. It's the same for primaries here.

TalkinPeece See there’s a difference, because in Scotland they can. It seems to me completely balmy that English LEAs can’t.

In our area the only people that generally are disappointed are the ones that put unrealistic choices People that put a catchment school down in most cases get it.

For example putting 4 girls schools down and no other schools in your catchment in the vague hope that proves you want single sex. Always goes wrong!!

Yabbers
Found this
In 2016, the region with the highest percentage of live births to women born outside the UK was London (58.2%); the North East had the lowest (11.1%). London and the North East have consistently had the highest and lowest percentages respectively since 2001.
in section 8 here
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/bulletins/parentscountryofbirthenglandandwales/2016

madeye
Hampshire has it simple
all comps
three schools per form

“You know that Councils are not normally allowed to build new schools?“

They can... what they tend to do is make housing developers build them though, if they want to build and sell houses they need a school to go with them.

We live in a city. We can not walk to our catchment primary school, too far, probably as city centres Were devoid of children and inhabitants when the last lot of schools were closed in the late 90s early 00s. When I last taught they were closing schools left right and centre. Five schools in an area reduced to two. Goodness knows how they manage now.

With secondary schools we had a choice of two for ds: catchment school and the religious school that DD attends. He only got in because she is "religious" and an older sibling. We are less than a mile away from another school, but that is on the edge of a densely populated area and has a small catchment. We had more choice for DD distances have shrunk in the last couple of years.

Plainspeaking, there is little choice for people in many poor areas. The best schools are oversubscribed, and as they tend to be in more affluent areas the kids who are in catchment will choose that school.

My DGD went to high school in a fairly affluent area last year. Any of the three nearest options were classed as oustanding. Not many pupils from deprived areas would have that 'choice'.