To think perhaps schools should insist on vaccinations.

[Lovestonap]

Good animal boarding kennels etc will not take animals without their vaccinations up to date.
Should our schools be able to insist on a completed course of childhood vaccinations (up to age appropriate) before giving a space at a school? Obviously children who are unable to be vaccinated would have a medical exemption certificate. I think this would be a good idea, but then I'm wondering if this is a nanny state too far thing. Probably implications for human rights I haven't considered.

5% of febrile seizures result in epilepsy, a brain disorder that leads to recurring seizures and PERMANENT harm

No, they don’t.

You have a couple of issues here:

1. Assuming that febrile seizures cause epilepsy, rather than seizures occurring in children who was already likely to develop epilepsy.

1. Assuming MMR or other vaccines are a trigger for febrile seizures, rather than a cause of fever that triggered a seizure in a child who was already predisposed and would have had a febrile seizure at another time with another fever (supported by the rate of febrile seizures after MMR)

1. Using crazily incorrect figures. Let’s ask the Epilepsy Foundation, who I assume know a little about this. Risk factors accompanying febrile seizures that increase the risk of later epilepsy include abnormal development before the seizure, complex febrile seizures (as mentioned above) and seizures without fever in an immediate family member.

If a child has no risk factors, their risk of epilepsy is the same as any other child.

If they have one risk factor, they have a 2.5% chance of later epilepsy. Two or three risk factors makes it to your 5% threshold (and potentially up to 10%).

Is the Epilepsy Foundation wrong?

“No, they don’t” is a handy phrase for copying and pasting when responding to Cath.

I’m considering making a keyboard shortcut.

I bloody love researching new sciences things. I’m having a lovely evening learning about all sorts of new things thanks to Cath.

Cath - any updates on links to the things I previously asked about? The CDC on ‘unavoidably unsafe’, maybe?

academic.oup.com/aje/article/165/8/911/184889

Equally ...Maybe you could comment on the fact that measles is a benign illness in anyone who has adequate levels of vitamin A

Most people I know who don’t vaccinate also home ed their kids anyway because they don’t want them being ‘brainwashed’ by schools, you’d just end up encouraging them

That’s interesting, I’m going to dig to see why the Danish data is so different from the British and US (and also read into the study, as the abstract suggests risk groups). It looks interesting, thanks for sharing. However it does make clear even in the first pages that there is correlation, not causation.

On Vit A - how about you go first with the assertions you already haven’t backed up? I’ll do some reading in the meantime :)

No? Nothing? Cath, you disappoint me.

Ok, here we go:

Equally ...Maybe you could comment on the fact that measles is a benign illness in anyone who has adequate levels of vitamin A

No, it isn’t. Pre-existing Vitamin A deficiency is a risk factor for complications, but not the only factor.

Second, there is quite a bit of literature (Caballero and Rice, 1992, Friedan et al 1992, and others) around the primary causative factor - does measles depress serum retinol levels (Perry and Halsey 2004 and others), or does low serum retinol increase the likelihood of complications, or a combination.

It seems established that infection can affect serum retinol levels by a significant level - not just with measles. Basically a number of researchers indicate that acute measles worsens vit a deficiency by depleting the body’s stores and increasing its utilisation.

Either way, the current treatment protocol of Vit A supplementation for measles cases is supported by data reflecting better outcomes.

The broader question related to vaccination is: so what? Are you suggesting a broad-scale vitamin A supplementation programme as an alternative to vaccination? How do you arrive at the correct dose for each adult and child? Have you considered the risks of vitamin a loads that are too high, and of toxicity? What about the child whose vitamin a is abnormally low because they’ve just had an infection and got measles straight afterwards - are they collateral damage? Are communities with poor nutrition also reasonable collateral damage?

And I’ll come back to you on febrile seizures in the morning - I assume you read the mechanisms and confounding factors detail in the paper you shared? Illuminating. But worth considering:

5% of children have febrile seizures. Of those, a small percentage (between 1 and 5% depending on the study) go on to develop epilepsy. 1% of the total population have epilepsy.

It doesn’t seem massively surprising that a febrile seizure as an infant should be an early sign of a predisposition to epilepsy - as borne out by the Danish paper you shared, and also by the risk factors I set out earlier in the thread.

And all of this has very little to do with vaccination (increase in risk of febrile seizure for a total of 2 weeks after MMR then reversion to normal rates) so I’ve no idea why we’re discussing it, but it’s interesting nonetheless.

Off to bed now. Sleep well. Sure you’ll come back to me on unavoidably unsafe, virus shedding and all those other issues tomorrow.

"Scaveola those figures are totally scewed from notified measles cases... that would have more likely resulted in an emergency room visit"

No they're not.

Firstly, suspected measles don't go via A&E. Secondly the number of cases isn't dependent in any way on hospitalisation. The surveillance is across all GPs, and most cases are lab confirmed (I say 'most' because in larger outbreaks, it is possible that some may not be).

Your terminology makes me suspect you are not British. Is the term emergency room a translation from Russian? (Given the accounts known to be quite active in this area, it's quite likely)

Also, you seem rather unfamiliar with epidemiology. I take it it's not an area you have qualifications in.

YABU and stupid, to boot.
School isn't compulsory. If you don't want them to go for whatever reason, then don't send them. It's not like you have to.

Speaking here as some one who never received a single vaccination as a child my mother was decidedly against vaccinations I then chose to get the hvp when I turned having the decision for myself at last I never understand why people whose children are vaccinated are so vocal about thier children mixing with un vaccinated children ? If they are vaccinated the are immune to certain illnesses strains what's the issue? Children with health issues and compromised immune systems are obviously at risk but with a compromised immune system they are susiptable to low immunity but don't understand the recurring threads on here about mothers with vaccinated children so vocal ?

YANBU

Perhaps it should go a step further and be a requirement for international travel so people like that shitty French couple and their child in Costa Rica cannot reintroduce measles into these people's countries.
Privileged little shits just Selfish and disgusting!

blondie

Because for herd immunity to be achieved we need x amount of people to be immunised. It's not just about our children, it's about our babies who are too young to have the jabs, our elderly parents who could be killed, pregnant women being put at risk, our friends with cancer...

Vaccines are also not 100% effective. So without the herd immunity there's still a chance of a vaccinated person getting the disease

There's also the issue of physical transmission. An infected child may transmit something to a vaccinated child via touching, that vaccinated child then touches an immuno-compromised person.

The goal is to ERADICATE these diseases and that's not going to happen if they're given a chance to spread.

‘An infected child may transmit something to a vaccinated child via touching, that vaccinated child then touches an immuno-compromised person’

Something? We are outnumbered massively by microbes...many studies state by 10:1. It’s the terrain that’s important, the basic health and nutrition status of the individual that prevents them developing disease, not the microbe.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying there, are you saying there's only 10 microbes for every one person? Because if so your numbers are WAY WAY off.

And read about the chain of infection. Preventing children from being vectors of disease breaks the chain of infection. Papping on about nutritional status like you keep doing isn't helpful when perfectly healthy people die from viruses every day. It's also not helpful when we are talking about those who are immuno-compromised.

'I know you're going working over sees with those rabid bats Jeffery but don't get the rabies vaccine, your overall health and diet is amazing! You'll be fine!' < you.

10 microbes to every one human cell .....in terms of number

Perfectly healthy people generally don’t die of viruses... there’s invariably an underlying medical condition

There’s been many studies and all of them come back with the fact that there are more bacteria in a persons body than human cells.

And in terms of so called ‘viruses’ there are even more of them than bacteria in the body..

Perfectly healthy people generally don’t die of viruses... there’s invariably an underlying medical condition

I really don't want to find out if I or my dc have an underlying condition when measles, chicken pox etc strike...
how would you know unless you undergo invasive tests?

Vaccinations are compulsory in my country if children want to go to school and have no exemption evidence

Perfectly healthy people generally don’t die of viruses... there’s invariably an underlying medical condition
Oh well those people I've had to sit with whilst they've died must have had it wrong eh? The autopsy must have been wrong too. Silly me, pumping IVs into someone who couldn't possibly be dying.

I'm bowing out of talking to you because you don't know enough about the subject to speak with such authority and it's really very annoying. You don't understand enough and that's okay, I hope someone is able to educate you one day and that you listen.

I’m assuming you’re not remotely medically trained as you didn’t even understand the simple ratio of 10:1 I referred to above... like I was suggesting 10 microbes on 1 person...seriously?

Also I understand now that you're trying to talk about Human Microbiota. I'm not sure what relevance that has to picking up a virus from another person- the fact you think you can easily link these two as a ah ha! moment show that, as I said, you don't understand enough about the subject. I imagine you think there's all these microbee just sat there chilling so it's okay to come into contact with others