To think perhaps schools should insist on vaccinations.

[Lovestonap]

Good animal boarding kennels etc will not take animals without their vaccinations up to date.
Should our schools be able to insist on a completed course of childhood vaccinations (up to age appropriate) before giving a space at a school? Obviously children who are unable to be vaccinated would have a medical exemption certificate. I think this would be a good idea, but then I'm wondering if this is a nanny state too far thing. Probably implications for human rights I haven't considered.

cath doesn't make sense what you're saying though. More people are dying from measles than the MMR. The MMR hasn't killed anyone. The MMR regardless of where it has been given, developing nation or no. So I'm struggling to see the point you're trying to make that measles isn't more dangerous than the MMR. If the MMR hasn't killed anyone anywhere, but measles has killed millions... there's been 18 measles deaths in the UK in the past twenty years (dramatically reduced thanks to vaccination) and zero MMR deaths.

walkingdeadfangirl... have you heard of virus shedding... it’s what newly vaccinated children do.... unlike unvaccinated children who aren’t ill. The moronity on this thread is outstanding as usual

Yes I have, DP has HPV, so I'm fully aware.

You are aware that it doesn't happen with vaccines, and was very rare even with old, live vaccines?

I think there needs to be a happy medium - when my kids went to school in another country, they (and their teachers!) had to do poop smear tests to prove they didn't have worms - let alone vaccinations and nits!

walkingdeadfangirl... have you heard of virus shedding... it’s what newly vaccinated children do.... unlike unvaccinated children who aren’t ill. The moronity on this thread is outstanding as usual

Virus shedding does not happen with all vaccinations. For example, the M and M in MMR do not shed.

Equally, very few newly-vaccinated children are at school, except for the few vaccines offered to school age children.

Equally equally, cases of disease transmission from the extremely low risk from vaccine shedding are very low. (For example, around 11 cases from 50 million vaccinations with VCV.)

I will refrain from applying the rude epithets you have used to describe others, but appear are sadly accurate in your case.

Oh well done, you found one of hundreds of debunking sites aimed at discrediting any doctor or scientist daring to speak out against vaccination... this is why doctors are afraid to speak out and remain quietly anti vax like my GP

Yes. There are many because the group is very easy to debunk with peer reviewed science, which as pointed out, the group don’t trouble themselves with too much.

Or are you concerned that by pointing out that this group’s methods, funding and motives are questionable, the rest of your statements may also start to seem shaky?

'Measles had declined massively in developed countries before mass vaccination"

Yes, it went from killing about

Prequelle
‘Approximately 40 cases of death and permanent injury from the MMR vaccine are reported to VAERS annually.5 However, VAERS is a passive reporting system—authorities do not actively search for cases and do not actively remind doctors and the public to report cases. These limitations can lead to significant underreporting.6 The CDC states, “VAERS receives reports for only a small fraction of actual adverse events.”7 Indeed, as few as 1% of serious side effects from medical products are reported to passive surveillance systems,8 and as few as 1.6% of MMR-related seizures are reported to VAERS.9 In addition, VAERS reports are not proof that a side effect occurred, as the system is not designed to thoroughly investigate all cases.10 As a result, VAERS does not provide an accurate count of MMR vaccine side effects’

Children die of measles and all manner of other diseases which are completely non fatal in the U.K. when they have no access to proper nutrition or clean water. It is this that is killing people

@Prequelle I'm late to reply but just to be clear.... when I suggested the option for an antivaxer to be exposed to wild measles I meant the antivaxer not their children. Just wondering how many would take it up.

I’m always surprised how much people focus solely on the mortality rates with measles, rather than also considering other long-term permanent impacts.

I agree that even when looking only at the mortality rates, vaccination stacks up. But when you include long-term effects the case is even more compelling.

cath I see you failed to see my post on VAERS? If you go back you mind find it enlightening.

If we go on your idea that the MMR kills and is more dangerous than measles, as the vaccine was introduced (so MMR rates increased and measles dropped) why didn't we see a swapping of the mortality rates? Because that would make sense right if what you say is true? Or in fact, they should be worse as far more people get the vaccine than would have probably gotten measles.

Scaveola those figures are totally scewed from notified measles cases... that would have more likely resulted in an emergency room visit. Most measles cases weren’t even reported as it was considered a self limiting condition requiring nothing more than bed rest

The schools wouldn't have to police it - when applications are made to the LA for places, an immunisation record should be part of that process. As others have said, it is standard in other countries, why not here. No record = no school application.

I'd like to go even further and say that the application process could take information from NHS records but I work for the NHS and know not to be so silly.

Long term adverse effects in measles were vanishingly rare. Far more adverse effects from the MMR particularly wrt to seizures

My DS never had the MMR vaccine. Neither did DD who was a few years older than him, as her jab was due when Wakefield was claiming links to autism.
A few years ago there was a measles outbreak and DS caught it. Dd never though. DS's case was mild and made a full recovery after a few days.
Rather ironically he has autism.

I don't think the state should enforce vaccinations. The Vaccine Damage compensation scheme is there for a reason.
DC had all their other jabs. I'm not an anti vaxxer before anyone jumps on me!

Cath are you in the UK? Are there actually NHS doctors/general practitioners who are anti vaccinations?

CDC states that vaccines are unavoidably unsafe. Unavoidably unsafe is not a risk I intend to subject my child to for something I see as wholely unnecessary

Yes I’m from the U.K. and yes there are plenty

Friendorfaux.. interesting that your DD didn’t catch it being in such promxity... I had the same experience. I had measles at 11, my unvaccinated brother didn’t get it, neither did any of my unvaccinated friends who were round most of the time, or anyone else at my school. Interesting for such a supposedly ‘very contagious’ disease

CDC states that vaccines are unavoidably unsafe. Unavoidably unsafe is not a risk I intend to subject my child to for something I see as wholely unnecessary

I think you are mistaken, unless you can provide a source link?

‘Unavoidably unsafe’ isn’t a scientific term. It’s a legal term within US tort law. It doesn’t mean a product is dangerous - it’s related to liability, and essentially sets out a criteria of exemption for liability where there is a risk of adverse effect (eg 1 in 900,000 risk of anaphylaxis with MMR) but where there is no practicable means to further reduce the risk without making the product ineffective. It’s essentially a category that distinguishes a product from those that are defective.

It is an American legal way of saying what we are all saying: ‘there is a small risk associated with this, and it is unavoidable without removing the utility of the vaccination and its benefits’.

I wonder why you’re conflating febrile seizure rates with long term effects?

Let’s look at long-term effects, though. Measles encephalopathy is a good place to start. According to Fisher et al (QJM, 2015), encephalitis concurrent with measles infection affects 1–3/1000 patients. The mortality rate is 10–15% and a further 25% of patients endure permanent neurological damage.

Acute post-measles encephalitis affects approximately 1 in every 1000 children is affected following a measles infection (and 1–2/1 000 000 following live measles vaccination). Mortality is ∼5% in children and 25% in adults.Some children who appear fully recovered demonstrate subtle long-lasting deficits in attention or decision-making ability or behaviour when evaluated more than 3 years after acute post-measles encephalitis.

Not huge numbers, but significantly higher than UK vaccine damage rates for all vaccines. Looking at encephalitis alone, measles is more dangerous than MMR by a significant amount.

physiciansforinformedconsent.org/measles/dis/

‘In the U.S. and other developed countries, 75–92% of hospitalized measles cases are low in vitamin A‘
Butler JC, Havens PL, Sowell AL, Huff DL, Peterson DE, Day SE, Chusid MJ, Bennin RA, Circo R, Davis JP. Measles severity and serum retinol (vitamin A) concentration among children in the United States. Pediatrics. 1993 Jun;91(6):1177-81.
Hussey GD, Klein M. A randomized, controlled trial of vitamin A in children with severe measles. N Engl J Med. 1990 July;323(3):160-4.

Because around 5% of febrile seizures result in permanent disability

Because around 5% of febrile seizures result in permanent disability

No, they don’t. Around 5% of children will have a febrile seizure at some point before the age of 5, most of which are classified as ‘simple’ febrile seizures. Studies (including UK population-based studies) have found no academic, intellectual or behavioural differences at age 10 between those who had had febrile seizures and those who hadn’t. Complex febrile seizures have a slightly elevated long term mortality rate acccording to a Danish study, but simple seizures do not.

There are other studies on observable brain changes in 7% of children with some forms of febrile seizures (febrile status epilipticus, seizures lasting more than 30 minutes), but the causal link and effects are unknown at this point (eg are the brain differences biomarkers for the predisposition to seizures, rather than the converse, which is one unproven hypothesis I’ve seen). And are a small subset of febrile seizures.

5% of febrile seizures result in epilepsy, a brain disorder that leads to recurring seizures and PERMANENT harm