To wish there was not a decline in the number of children studying foreign languages

[ForalltheSaints]

According to a BBC survey, a 45% drop over c20 years in the number of language GCSEs taken, with a bigger drop in French, though more taking Spanish.

Apparently because they are perceived as more difficult.

I rejoice in not being the typical Brit or American abroad expecting everyone to speak English. Should we not be more encouraging, perhaps by allowing universities if they wish to insist on one language GCSE alongside English Language and Maths as a condition of entry?

What will learning about foreign language structure help with further down the line? Uk kids are learning SPAG from 4.

I find the snobbery and distain on here towards those not learning a language quite enlightening.

Not sure getting a feeling for another culture comes from learning a lang past year 9. Visiting and reading about the country is far more likely to.

My remainer dh is a Francophile.He can’t speak a word of French and has never had a Lang qualification . Pre Brexit he was looking at several jobs in Europe in his sector, none wanted him to speak the language of the countries they were based. They did however want the highly desirable skills he has in his field.One of my dc was planning on going to uni in Holland or Germany which pre Brexit was becoming a popular option. He doesn’t speak a word of Dutch or German and the courses were in Eng.

I can speak a little French. I’m no more open minded than DH. We’ve travelled all over Europe. Fat lot of good my French was in Denmark, Holland, Italy, Spain, Greece, Germany.....

I do think the usual list of available languages is not practical with the exception of Spanish. Needs to be more choices that are relevant, like Mandarin and Arabic.

Could you explain why you think Mandarin and Arabic are more 'relevant' to UK pupils? How many Brits do you think travel to countries where those languages are spoken, compared with the numbers who travel to France and Spain? How many pupils per year do you think will end up working in China?

Also, if it is very hard to achieve a decent level of useful French or Spanish by GCSE, how much worse do you think it would be in a language where you have to learn a whole new script? I tried learning Japanese for fun. It's really, really hard and I'm an Oxbridge graduate linguist.

I think pushing languages like Mandarin in UK schools is totally bonkers. Don't get me wrong- personally I'd love to learn Mandarin or Arabic. It would be fascinating and an intellectual challenge for me (not at all useful)... but I am a language nerd.

My DC wants to choose double languages. This is ‘something we offer, but not one of the more regular routes’. I find it bizarre, no one says that about tripe science, double maths or double English. They even let you choose a bunch of less academic options without saying anything.

Mind you, the school does also have 4 languages other than English as possibilities. One is Latin though!

I was a TA in a Kent secondary modern in 1997 when MFL were compulsory, working with the very lowest sets. Some of the pupils couldn't read well enough to follow an English Comprehension exercise.

First term of French was fine. They all learnt words phonetically and were able to do what I'd been taught in my primary school back in 1970. Then term 2 they brought in the writing and reading. All their enthusiasm died and it was one more thing they weren't any good at.

Those who want it compulsory have presumably never had to deal with an 11 yo who can't read, struggles to write, can't form sentences on paper without having been told what to write. We TAs thought it was so cruel to force these kids to sit through French lessons, when they desperately needed to improve their English and basic skills.

I can clearly remember all the French I learned in the Infants. I have found out recently that our school was part of an experimental programme, and we were taught orally and phonetically. I can't remember what I did for French O level.

I wanted my own DC to have a head start so we got French cable TV and made them watch that instead of English TV. We sent one to a French speaking nursery and he was fluent when he went to school. What we hadn't realised was that because we couldn't keep it up they forgot it.

I think the best approach to learning languages is for it to be taught at primary from Y2 but phonetically and orally only, and by a native speaker, not Miss Brown with her local accent. Carry on throughout primary and into early secondary and only then teach written if pupils show an aptitude.

A lot of views on this, some of which I had not expected. Such as that about politicians being able to give interviews to newspapers abroad and the divergent views about when to start learning a foreign language. My own view on the latter is that it should start in primary school, even if only spoken and not written.

The common language other than English is something that I have found useful on a few occasions. The lessons on structure of language are also useful as it also helps you understand why some people when speaking English as an additional language do so in a way that those for whom it is their native language do not.

Where I think we go wrong in the UK is with all the grammar and tenses etc - it's not really that interesting and doesn't engage the pupils. It's clear that other countries don't attach the same importance when teaching English, hence the amount of "pigeon" English spoken by non English native speakers, yet they get by perfectly well.

I've looked at language learning in several countries, and the English definitely seem to be the ones who do the least formal grammar. Hence the situation where my neighbour's son has to get through his German oral by parroting a memorised notebook: he simply has no idea of the technique used to put a German sentence together (aka grammar). Memorising works for the very first basics: asking for a drink on holiday or the way to the railway station, but that gets boring very soon. Our language teaching is as if we tried to teach maths by making students memorise a number of equations instead of learning how to work them out for yourself.

I did French as my second foreign language and I still have a very clear recollection of a long list of French irregular verbs. As a result I can pick up a French book I have never seen before and read it and or make a reasonable stab at writing a French text myself. This is far more fun that repeating a list of sentences I don't understand.

Where I think we go wrong in the UK is with all the grammar and tenses etc - it's not really that interesting and doesn't engage the pupils. It's clear that other countries don't attach the same importance when teaching English, hence the amount of "pigeon" English spoken by non English native speakers, yet they get by perfectly well.

I think where uk gets it wrong is by not teaching english grammar and structure. the poor grasp of english by native speakers is often astounding.

DD doing options now.

She is going to do either French or Spanish and an additional language - Arabic. They have to do a language.

The Arabic though is not part of the school curriculum.

I'd quite like her to do 3 languages

I have always worked in an international department of one sort of another so for me it's normal to hear different languages all the time. I love languages and really hope DD continues her love for it.

I think there is an other (amazing) thing about learning a different language...
I am dyslexic, when it comes to my mother language. My spelling is truly awful! Yet my spelling for the 2 learned languages is near perfect! I believe it is a result of the way it was taught. No blending or guessing, just learning as a fact. How a word is spelt. No previous knowledge or pre consived ideas.
I think MFL could be the key to unlock the world of words to 1000's of children.

And yes to PP who commented on OUR grammar. I have no end of students learning English as a foreign language who are aghast at our pitiful knowledge of our own grammar and structures.

We do teach grammar, children are tested on it in year 6.

it's not really that interesting and doesn't engage the pupils.

How many times can I sigh?

This was the comment of the Head when as a governor I asked about listening to a wider range of music in school. Cat's bum mouth and a steely, "The children can't engage with classical music."

Learning a lot of stuff is not "fun". It's hard graft and only becomes enjoyable when you've mastered something to a good degree.

Btw, ime in Europe the pupils spend a lot of time learning their own grammar from when they start school - parsing sentences etc. With a command of one's own grammar then that of another language falls into place (more easily, anyway).

I find these threads very reductive and depressing. If people think the only value in learning a language is that you might use it on holiday, what do they think the value of GCSE geography is? That you can tell someone how an oxbow lake is formed? My son found physics boring and difficult, and realistically the only physics concepts you 'need' for daily life can be taught in Year 7. Most people don't need to use information about Napoleon's campaigns in their daily lives either.

Learning another language is part of a broad general education that can act as a springboard for further study, but is also valuable in itself- it helps you to think about language and its structure, it uses particular logical and analytical skills and it gives you a small insight into another country and culture. Any of those things are worthwhile.

Not past year 9 they’re not.

I found that Spanish was particularly useful in terms of learning how to learn a language, if you see what I mean, because in the early stages of learning it is very clearly about sentence structure and how verbs work and so on. I found it more accessible than French in that regard. Maybe that’s partly due to the different circumstances in which I learnt the two languages though. But Spanish just makes sense to me I guess.

corythatwas - when I was at school, we did actually learn the basics of MFL grammar. However, a few years ago I invigilated a GCSE Spanish oral exam and all they'd had to do was memorise some sentences and phrases. (Most of the pupils were very nervous and tongue-tied). They weren't really using their knowledge of the rules of the language to form new ideas and respond to questions, but instead were just parroting phrases they'd memorised.

Not past year 9 they’re not.

Is that in reference to languages not being useful after Year 9? Or was it a reply to something else?

slowknitter

My point was that German/French speakers tend to have a high standard of English, while Chinese generally do not. A lot of companies in Western Europe use English as their working language too.

Culturally, I think China can only be properly understood in its own linguistic context. Imagine the Middle East is the same in that regard but no personal experience there.

And yes to PP who commented on OUR grammar. I have no end of students learning English as a foreign language who are aghast at our pitiful knowledge of our own grammar and structures

That's changed though. DH and I both went to very traditional schools but were never formally taught grammar until we did French at O grade. DD1 is in year 6 and of the attached list of work she was given I could only answer the last 4, she thought it was hilarious because 'how could you not know what a fronted adverbial is Mum?'

I meant learning a language isn’t valuable enough to warrant forced study past year 9.

And 78% attained expected level last year.

From what I can see of language teaching in the UK, there is a lot of emphasis on grammar and vocab, and not so much on the culture. It's about as interesting as reading a Berlitz guide. Perhaps I'm out of date. Why isn't culture integrated in the study of language at an early age? This is what happens elsewhere.

It's true that grammar is taught at primary schools now, which is certainly an improvement, but it is ditched as soon as the KS3 SATS are done with. None taught at Secondary, from what I can gather.

Unfortunately, reactions from parents about the return to grammar teaching seem pretty hostile, and most primary school teachers presumably don't know the stuff themselves because they were never taught it! I teach ds grammar myself, because I don't think they do it well at school. Even the practice papers often have mistakes in them!

It’s not hard to learn. I suspect most teachers are more than capable of picking it up and teaching it well.

Why isn't culture integrated in the study of language at an early age? This is what happens elsewhere.

It is. Most topics we teach have an opportunity for some cultural input - food, travel, how the French school system works, fashion, festivals etc etc. This is done from primary school onwards. Once you get to AS Level, it's massively culture-based.
However, MFL exams don't test cultural knowledge, so the culture element is just there to make the topics more interesting. My Year 5s were baffled to learn that not everyone in the world eats mince pies at Christmas.