To wish there was not a decline in the number of children studying foreign languages

[ForalltheSaints]

According to a BBC survey, a 45% drop over c20 years in the number of language GCSEs taken, with a bigger drop in French, though more taking Spanish.

Apparently because they are perceived as more difficult.

I rejoice in not being the typical Brit or American abroad expecting everyone to speak English. Should we not be more encouraging, perhaps by allowing universities if they wish to insist on one language GCSE alongside English Language and Maths as a condition of entry?

[MariaNovella]

We just accept the decline, the closure of university departments, withdraw from the EU and expect everyone to fall into line with us?

It’s the route to obscurity...

[CanILeavenowplease]

It’s the route to obscurity

Ain't that the truth. It is beyond me how seemingly intelligent people can't think this one through in a vaguely logical manner.

[hoodathunkit]

And again Bangs Head on Table! Where, hoodathunkit, are all these Mandarin/Russian/BSL teachers coming from? Especially if you are in, say, the depths of Wales? Or even in Surrey?

We could start by closing down the Steiner school and the free school system that Gove spent so much money on (8 billion IIMC), claw back whatever money we can and spend it on languages rather than on teaching children about gnomes being real, reincarnation and the superiority of the "Ayran race".

That's just for starters.

If we can fund activist groups such as Mermaids peddling pseudo-science to children in schools we can fund teaching of proper, important subjects such as languages.

[hoodathunkit]

You're welcome :)

[ElloBrian]

I have to agree with AllesAusLiebe on the learning process and grammar. My experience of learning languages has been very much practical: questions like ‘why does that word change depending on who’s doing the action?’ and so on arise naturally as part of the process of exploring words and themes and building sentences.

I don’t think there is one single way to learn languages - some people probably do get on better with a more overtly grammar based structure - but it’s what works for me and I find it the most accessible way.

[MariaNovella]

Ain't that the truth. It is beyond me how seemingly intelligent people can't think this one through in a vaguely logical manner.

Their egos get in the way. They themselves failed to learn languages. Rather than acknowledge their own shortcomings, they put up defenses to preserve their own self image.

[IrmaFayLear]

I repeat, you can throw billions at language provision, but unless you import all the teachers, there will be tumbleweed blowing across the classrooms. Schools struggle to find French/Spanish teachers. Where are they going to find qualified teachers in a whole host of other languages? Especially outside metropolitan areas.

And ime many, many parents are desperate for their dc to give up MFL at the earliest opportunity as they struggle. The way to learn a language unacademically , if you will, is by ear, and in this country we are actually lucky enough to speak the world's no. 1 language of choice so we are not bombarded by another language every day and learn by osmosis.

If you go to, say, the US and converse with Hispanic people who have learnt English by ear, you would have to say, "Can I have a glass of WADDER ? rather than, "worter" as most would not understand it as it is written.

Actually I find it very difficult to understand people from certain regions of France; they do not speak like "Juge" in Spiral! Even many language lessons a week in schools is not going to make linguists of us all.

[AndItStillSaidFourOfTwo]

AllesAusLiebe - I would strongly encourage you to go the bilingual route - not being 'native' speakers (in my view) doesn't mean my dc aren't extremely proficient, and as soon as they spend any time in an English-speaking environment they're away (and usually end up picking up the accent of that environment, plus any idiomatic expressions, within days). Your dc prob won't speak like you, or sound (much) like you, or necessarily have the same range of vocab (but reading can make up for a whole lot of that - I read to my older two every night until they were 13 and nearly 11, and it was 98% English books. My youngest is 3, in German kindergarten, and comes out with the most exquisite phrases from the, again, 90% English books we have and she loves having read to her). But they'll have a competency and a flexibility with languages which is incredibly useful. (Eldest is now learning French and is by far top of the class - I think he's only had a 2 once and everything else is 1s - and I am guessing it is partly to do with the bilingualism).

[AndItStillSaidFourOfTwo]

(And I'm aware I've used that awful MN 'top of his class' thing, but in the case of my eldest and French, it's true - not necess in other subjects! He's actually fairly even with 1s and 2s in English, of all things, but unfortunately both my older ones have been thoroughly disengaged by the teaching. No. 2 says 'Schulenglisch' is a separate variety of English and he's not far wrong)

[Mistigri]

Eldest is now learning French and is by far top of the class - I think he's only had a 2 once and everything else is 1s - and I am guessing it is partly to do with the bilingualism

Actually (and I also have two bright bilingual kids) I don't agree with this. Bilingual kids may have some advantages in learning other MFL, but that's really as far as it goes. And bilingual children whose parents don't speak and write the language in which their children are educated are often at a significant disadvantage. This is a big issue for many English speaking families in France.

I agree with Maria - given limited funds for teaching languages you have to use those funds right, and funding half-arsed primary language teaching is not a cost effective way of teaching languages. Motivated older students with good teachers can make impressive progress even if they are not natural linguists. My DS has no particular aptitude for languages but he's become reasonably proficient in German in less than 18 months, with a very good teacher and small class groups. It helps that he has good grammar knowledge thanks to 4 years of Latin. This is in a (very) ordinary French state school by the way.

[AliTheMinx]

I love languages and was lucky to have outstanding teachers at school. I studied English, French and German at A-level and have my degree in German and ab initio Italian. I will definitely encourage my son to learn at least one MFL. It has taught me so much about language, idioms and semantics.

[Footloose80]

At school I was allowed to drop French. Dd has to study a MFL so not my experience.

[zwellers]

Hoodathunkit bsl seriously? . Why? It bad enough children have to waste time with French and German most of them are never going to use.

[ForalltheSaints]

Having more MFL teachers is important, but I don't think that is the only thing that is needed. Hence my suggestion that one at GCSE level should be a requirement for university entry.

[Inliverpool1]

We started teaching my children “muzzy” in the car at 1 year old. All speak a second language and eldest is taking mandarin at degree level. I am delighted it’s paid off

[Inliverpool1]

www.muzzybbc.com

[Ifailed]

OP, why make 1 GCSE in MFL compulsory for university? As many PPs have pointed out, the level of language obtained is pretty useless, most people will have forgotten it in a few years and it would just take time out of the curriculum that could be better spent on supporting those students who maybe struggle with English but otherwise could excel at a degree?

[N0rdicStar]

Why make it a requirement for uni? That is bonkers.

[speakout]

I can't get too worked up about this.

I think there are more pressing issues like decent science and technology education at primary level.

By the time science is taught decently at 13 many kids are switched off.
We need to be teaching children meaninful science at a much younger age so we can keep up globally.

Most primary teachers are not able to teach science to any decent level.

[plumsnett]

My dh is very intelligent, got 100% in one of his a level further maths papers, for a d in french when he was forced to sit the gcse. This effectively put him off many university’s lists as gcse counted. Is that ok? Not everyone’s cut out for it.

Language learning should not be forced, many other countries are learning English simply because it’s the main language of communication globally, their tv shows and films are in English and they like to watch them in English, their adverts and slang words often use English, it’s cool to learn English because it shows you’re more likely to broaden your horizons in the future.
England doesn’t have random foreign words in adverts/films/no foreign movie stars to look up to. It’s actually a big deal to compare why we may be behind other countries on the language front. Not to mention the blindingly obvious that’s English as first or second language is almost universally expected across whole continents!

FWIW I took a levels french and German a levels and my sister became fluent in french and German and used it for business but in London she’s found they’d hire a native German or a french speaker any day over her (she is completely fluent and lived in both countries including doing business in both). In Germany and France she’s found the opposite, they’d much rather hire a local person with fluent English. Again another aspect to why people are potentially put off bothering. I love languages though so I’ll continue wanting to learn them but take out any incentive and for some it’s simply not worth it.

[speakout]

plumsnett


I agree. I had a good friend at school, she gained A levels at A pass in Physics, Maths, Chemistry and Art.
In those days a GCSE was an absolute requirement to enter University.
She failed her GCSE French three times, despite having a private tutor and one to one tuition at school.
She was unable to enter University.

She was heartbroken.

[AndItStillSaidFourOfTwo]

Mistigri - I did say partly. My ds quite clearly has an aptitude for languages regardless of the bilingualism (as did I - from a monolingual background but found French and German came very naturally to me at school and was quickly functionally bilingual/near-native in German after moving here). And I'm also sure some of the advantages my dc appear to have are related to the way their particular bilingualism has been done - we've found OPOL to work really well and have been quite thoughtful about additional input. But observationally (yes, anecdata), the skills involved in handling two languages from birth and reflected on as he grows are certainly helping my ds handle a third.

I do agree with you about half-arsed primary teachers - that's been very much my observation of primary-level English here. It's been decided it Has To Be Done, from as early as possible, but IME the real learning doesn't start until secondary (when it does progress very rapidly, largely because at that level English is treated as a core subject alongside German and maths). I think there's still an idea about a language window which allegedly shuts at 7, which isn't the case, although I do think children take to languages better than adults overall.

[Mistigri]

AndIStillSaid From your posts I am inclined to think that your DC would have had a head start in any school environment mono or bilingual (as would mine) . I think whether bilingual education is advantageous depends a lot on the individual. It can be tough going for kids with SEN for example especially when the parents don't speak and write the school language well. Even for my bright but not especially verbal DS the early years were tough (he took a long time to speak French properly despite being an early talker in English).