To wish there was not a decline in the number of children studying foreign languages

[ForalltheSaints]

According to a BBC survey, a 45% drop over c20 years in the number of language GCSEs taken, with a bigger drop in French, though more taking Spanish.

Apparently because they are perceived as more difficult.

I rejoice in not being the typical Brit or American abroad expecting everyone to speak English. Should we not be more encouraging, perhaps by allowing universities if they wish to insist on one language GCSE alongside English Language and Maths as a condition of entry?

It's also a question of opportunity / problem with the A'level system.

My best pal from school is unbelievably bright and not at all lazy. He's now a neurosurgeon. But seeing as most people do only three or four subjects at A'level, he had to drop languages, much to his disappointment, and he did maths and the three sciences.

The MFL problem in the UK is incredibly deep seated, as this thread has explored. Most MFL teaching is wasted on pupils whose grasp of their own grammar is too weak to act as a scaffold for the grammar of MFL. Pupils are set up to fail (to believe they are no good at MFL) by a system that is not fit for purpose.

English grammar needs to be taught systematically from the age of 7 with a view to MFL acquisition.

My son is asd in a mainstream school and he really dislikes MFL. Conceptually he finds it so abstract and really difficult. Personally I feel this time would be better spent on core skills for SEN children unless they have a particular interest.

vickibee - I agree. DC with SEN really need schools to concentrate resources where they have the greatest need and chance of an impact.

I think it’s partially due to the way in which language learning is viewed. At school, I hated learning English so much because it was all textbooks and grammar. That said, I’ve heard that the approach to teaching English in the UK now has a much greater focus upon grammar, which I’m not sure is helpful to encourage young people to have a love of language.

Fact is, you won’t find many Germans who can successfully explain the cases and I include myself here.

I also don’t think it’s helpful to compare the UK to other European nations. Many people in Europe have good English because they have to. In a lot of cases, you’ll be excluded from much of the employment market otherwise.

I’ve heard that the approach to teaching English in the UK now has a much greater focus upon grammar, which I’m not sure is helpful to encourage young people to have a love of language.

Isn’t that something of an oxymoron? How can you love language without loving grammar?

Isn’t that something of an oxymoron? How can you love language without loving grammar?*

Easily! One of the reasons I decided to improve my English was because I was sick of having to watch shitty overdubbed films and TV series. That certainly had nothing to do with a love of grammar, and the main area that i improved was comprehension.

There is an American professor, Stephen Kraschen, who advocates a natural approach to language learning. His research is fascinating - he suggests that comprehensible content is the key, grammar comes together naturally through exposure.

The success of the natural approach to language learning is dependent on huge amounts of exposure which is extremely expensive and hard to organise.

The point about school funding is well made.

Incidentally having been in Belgium for a Shrove Tuesday Carnival, the only time anyone spoke English to me was in a Flemish speaking area where they thought I was a native French speaker and will resolutely not speak French under any circumstances. Eventually they realised that my Dutch was enough for the conversation needed.

MariaNovella how is it expensive? Exposure in a school environment, for example, could encompass many things that would be fairly easy to organise with a little imagination.

My point really was in response to the idea that to enjoy language you need to fall in love with grammar. I’m testament to the fact that is absolutely not true. I love lots of things about the English language. English is expressive, varied, constantly evolving and I love the challenge of English pronunciation (which is damn hard, by the way! 😂). Dogmatically learning English grammar was a totally numbing experience.

AllesAusLiebe - I can’t even begin to understand why it isn’t totally obvious to you that it’s extremely expensive. FWIW in my family many of us have been brought up to be plurilingual and are bringing up plurilingual children. Attendance at schools where native speakers teach direct method is something we have plenty of experience of. It’s very hard to do àd very expensive.

I'm in a professional career and married to a German. It's a total embarrasment to me that I have consistently failed to learn the German language. The reason is pretty clear, I had a non existent grasp of english grammar. Strip away the grammar and all you are left with is abstract phrases to pin together, this is not a language! I'm actually learning English grammar through my 5 year old. He picks up the rules in school and suddenly explains then to me over dinner...I discreetly Google! Grammar is key and I'm very glad he is getting g the grounding in did not.

AllesAusLiebe, I think the 'comprehensible content' approach is fair enough, and works, if that content is qualitatively and quantitatively sufficient - but real immersion is very hard to do in the setting of a typical school. I'm a highly educated native speaker of English raising three dc bilingually (OPOL) in Germany. The dc are bilingual speakers of English but I would not call them real 'native' speakers - me being their only regular input, even though (if I say so myself) that input of is very high quality, is not enough. It needs the surrounding context (we live too rurally to send them to bilingual schools). And if you haven't even got that, a proper understanding of grammar is crucial - because grammatical rules interrelate and build on one another. Grammar learning doesn't have to be 'dogmatic', either - it's like getting an X-ray view of the 'skeleton' of a language, done well. (In all honesty there seems to be an attitude among some Germans - present company excepted, I'm sure - that grammar doesn't really matter in English, that it's all a lovely casual and informal language you can do what you like with (and indeed correct native speakers on ).

I can’t even begin to understand why it isn’t totally obvious to you that it’s extremely expensive

I’m still waiting for you to tell me.

AndItStillSaidFourOfTwo that’s very interesting to hear how it’s worked out for you. I have a little DS and would prefer him to be bilingual, although it isn’t hugely important to me as my family speak English reasonably well. What you said has actually made me think that this is going to be much more difficult than I had anticipated because, of course, the only regular exposure he’ll get to my native language is through me.

I’m also still laughing at your comments regarding attitudes to English because I’m afraid that I am probably very guilty of this!

(and indeed correct native speakers on ). I can only apologise for this, also. I can totally imagine this happening... 🙈 So embarrassing.

*I can’t even begin to understand why it isn’t totally obvious to you that it’s extremely expensive
*
I’m still waiting for you to tell me.

I imagine Maria meant that you need professional teachers who are native speakers, and small classes. By definition that is going to cost money.

My children are bilingual - English at home, educated in French state schools - and my oldest also has experience of part-time immersion in a third language in a school setting. For motivated older students who are good at languages, 8 hours a week of high-quality native-language teaching over 3 years is enough to get students pretty fluent. Personally I think that sort of intensive native language immersion teaching is actually more productive and cost effective at high school level than in primary.

Personally I think that sort of intensive native language immersion teaching is actually more productive and cost effective at high school level than in primary.

I very much agree with Mistigri and research is increasingly bearing this out. However, as we have explored at length upthread, children need good foundations in grammar in their first language in order to make rapid and solid progress in subsequent languages.

However, as we have explored at length upthread, children need good foundations in grammar in their first language in order to make rapid and solid progress in subsequent languages.

Well, that’s discussion settled. We’ve discussed it on Mumsnet by method of repetition of the exact same point and agreed almost unanimously that something is the case, therefore academic research is completely unnecessary and can be disregarded. 😂

There isn’t a single route to learning a language, AllesAusLiebe, and no one has claimed there is. There are, however, competing strategies that work but you have to have a long game plan and access to the resources that are necessary at every stage of the way.

Learning languages is incredibly important.

If I was in charge of education in this country children would be learning probably Mandarin and Russian and all school children would also learn BSL.

I am not fluent in any other language than English but am always learning little bits of language from anywhere I can, usually from native speakers of such language. Just learning how to say Hello, how are you, please, thank you, yes, no etc. in a language shows respect for others and opens doors.

I am quite good at languages, and can read very decently in four. However, when it comes to speaking out loud disaster strikes. And as is the case with even the most adept British people, the moment you speak the other person leaps into speaking (excellent) English or curls their lip at the dog's dinner you are making of their language. Bit of a generalisation, I know! I was once wrung by the hand most enthusiastically by a French shopkeeper for asking for something in French (!) and given a foul mouthful by an Italian railway clerk for repeatedly not understanding the very complicated timetable.

Frankly everyone talking about "immersion" - that's not going to happen. Until every pop song, Netflix series, YouTube clip etc etc is in French/Spanish/Swahili there is no hope of the kind of same exposure that other countries have to the English language.

And again Bangs Head on Table! Where, hoodathunkit, are all these Mandarin/Russian/BSL teachers coming from? Especially if you are in, say, the depths of Wales? Or even in Surrey?

Furthermore, languages have fashions. When I was choosing a second language in the 80s, it was all "German! Business! Don't do Latin - it's a useless dead language!" Some years later everyone was scurrying off to Japanese classes because Japan was where it was at (what happened there?!). Then it was Mandarin, and by the time I had dcs it was back to Latin. And now Russian.

Can you still learn Esperanto?!

And again Bangs Head on Table! Where, hoodathunkit, are all these Mandarin/Russian/BSL teachers coming from? Especially if you are in, say, the depths of Wales? Or even in Surrey?

Learning languages is incredibly important. Not for the vast majority of people in the UK, as many PPs can testify. For most people the only time another language will be of use is if they go abroad on holiday, and even then for the majority there will be no need.
There are limited hours, and resources, in the typical school day, and there are plenty of other subjects to cover that will be of more use in their future life for pupils.

There are limited hours, and resources, in the typical school day, and there are plenty of other subjects to cover that will be of more use in their future life for pupils

So that's it, then? We don't encourage language learning at all? We dont' encourage our children to be open to different ways of thinking, different cultures, different people? We just accept the decline, the closure of university departments, withdraw from the EU and expect everyone to fall into line with us?

Very few subjects have a 'use' beyond the classroom. Yet we don't put obstacles in the way of studying those, do we?