To wish there was not a decline in the number of children studying foreign languages

[ForalltheSaints]

According to a BBC survey, a 45% drop over c20 years in the number of language GCSEs taken, with a bigger drop in French, though more taking Spanish.

Apparently because they are perceived as more difficult.

I rejoice in not being the typical Brit or American abroad expecting everyone to speak English. Should we not be more encouraging, perhaps by allowing universities if they wish to insist on one language GCSE alongside English Language and Maths as a condition of entry?

I think kids are just embarrassed to speak it. The reason dd3 is 'Good' at languages is that she doesn't care and has a good accent!!

If that is an argument against learning foreign languages, it's an argument against learning pretty well anything. Of course it's a reason for not learning something - but by not learning key skills like Maths & English you limit your options by a significant degree - not learning French - not so much. But learning about things you like and are interested in is a pleasure - learning about something you despise is torturous and might teach you something but it's unlikely to be the thing intended.

Its not pointless to learn a language in the sense that it increases overall brain function.

No one seems to say ‘I’m not going to be a geographer’- they learn it just because. Surely learning for learning’s sake should be encouraged. But geography is everywhere and you don't need to be an expert to enjoy it - it's the same with history - you can easily engage in it - it's everywhere!

Language and culture are inextricably linked. I am so glad that my DC had the opportunity to study languages at school because it gave them the confidence to travel and expand their skills. They are accepted and make friends everywhere because people appreciate the effort they make.
DS speaks 3 languages and has travelled and lived in several countries.
DD speaks 4 languages and works day to day in one of her "other" languages.
They both have the opportunity to live and work outside the UK because of their language skills. Thank goodness.
I agree with the OP that language teaching and learning should be very much encouraged and supported.
I doubt that Brexit will help.

I find this thread rather depressing as have some other posters. Simply the idea that school should only be about producing workers who can fill in forms, enter numbers into excel, or whatever eminently practical skills might be needed in the workplace. The point of education should be to encourage young people to think independently, and languages has to be one of the best ways to achieve this. I don't think the point of learning French is to be able to order a coffee on the one weekend you go to Paris, but to inculcate the idea that there are other great cultures with literature, ideas, beyond our shores.

I was just listening to a podcast about Brexit (it was the Times Red Box), and foreign correspondents from Germany, Italy and the Netherlands, based in London, made the point that it is hard to get access to UK politicians because Uk politicians don't see the value in speaking to Die Welt or Le Monde, or whatever, and as a result, don't take an active interest in how Brexit is viewed outside Britain. In contrast, Dutch politicians would happily read the BBC or the Guardian and give interviews. Our problem with languages is partly responsible for the insular political debates we have been having.

My year 9 daughter isn’t choosing a foreign language at GCSE because she has to do compulsory Welsh GCSE, and figures this will be her language, albeit not a foreign one.

I have conflicting opinions about forcing children in Wales, especially South East Wales where virtually no Welsh is spoken, to study it. I agree that a massive part of a culture can die with a language. But I also know my daughter would rather study a foreign language of her choosing.

When I was visiting universities with DD, one was offering a language course on every degree course. I thought that was a brilliant idea. If she had gone there, DD would have definitely chosen another language to learn. Such a forward thinking idea.

kalinkafoxtrot45

You could still learn gaelic now. Teach yourself it.

This is such an interesting thread. Thank you for starting it.

I have three DC. The eldest didn't have to take any MFL at GCSE. The other two both took French. It was compulsory again then.

Interestingly DS1 (eldest) went to Germany on an Erasmus course. His uni assured him the course would be in English. I'd read the German uni's website and disagreed. I was right! But.. what a year he had. He had to learn a foreign language in a very short space of time. We ended up paying for him to have lessons so he could get to a sufficient level quickly. It's not just the language. He's learned that other nations have very different cultures and ways of thinking. It's changed him. He was kind of coasting his degree in England. His German compatriots were working very hard and producing their absolute best at all times. He continued this work ethic in England and got a First.

The other two DC were interested in languages but it seems such a slog to learn nowadays. Everything is learned by rote and the students don't even need to understand what they're learning; they just need to ensure they include certain vocabulary.

Also, I used to have overseas students stay and taught them English in my home. Their own assessment of their English skills was usually really high. When native English speakers are asked to assess themselves in a foreign language they usually assess themselves downwards. I've done it myself as an at one time completely bilingual in German speaker and above A level standard speaker of French.

If you're 'foreign ' English is the natural second language to choose in many cases. As an English person, which language should one choose? Also, access to English language is easy. In many countries the TV shows English/American shows with subtitles. That's rare here with the few foreign language shows that are broadcast. Much modern music is in English. I've been trying recently to find some German podcasts to listen to. That was more convoluted than I would have thought as the first search results for Der Spiegel,eG, were their English versions.

I think you can find some pretty cool French music - I have never heard any cool German music - maybe a bit of punk, heavy rock...you couldn't hear the words anyway.

Should we not be more encouraging, perhaps by allowing universities if they wish to insist on one language GCSE alongside English Language and Maths as a condition of entry? Are they not allowed to demand a MFL anymore? I thought they had just decided it wasn't necessary for all/most courses?

Its not pointless to learn a language in the sense that it increases overall brain function.

That's true, but it's not likely to be a high priority on most people's list when choosing GCSE subjects.

Should we not be more encouraging, perhaps by allowing universities if they wish to insist on one language GCSE alongside English Language and Maths as a condition of entry? It seems universities are allowed to insist on one language GCSE alongside English Language and Maths as a condition of entry - it's just they have decided demanding a language had become become "a significant barrier impeding access"

I taught German in England for 11 years and then gave up. I was sick of the negative attitude towards my subject, the constant 'why should we learn a language' yadda yadda yadda... Additionally I saw German being pushed out in favour of Spanish. I was in fact made redundant at two schools because, you know, kids prefer Spanish because of holidays (I hope you can imagine my rolling eyes here) and the only German teacher had to go.

I now teach in an international school in Asia and the difference couldn't be bigger. All my kids know at least two languages, most of them know three or even four. Everyone values languages and everyone is keen on learning more. My GCSE kids can hold a full conversation and don't rely on learnt off by heart stuff. They actually know their grammar and vocabulary and are able to put sentences together. The reason? It's really just because it's valued, parents and the children know how useful languages are. We also get more lessons a week and languages are compulsory at GCSE. It's not one of those forgotten subjects, but a valued one and it makes all the difference.

I find most British people’s attitude to other languages incredibly shameful. This thread is a good example.

I’m pretty shit at languages but I appreciate the value of being able to speak more than one. At school I did French, which I hated due to the teacher (that’s probably what put me off languages in the first place) and German which I found easier. Then I learnt Spanish while travelling in Latin America - it was really amazing how much more quickly I picked it up when I was inmersed in the language all day every day, that was a real eye opener. I have also done some beginners’ Irish, it’s an intriguing language, so different from most other European languages. So that’s been an interesting experience.

These days I have an employer who values language skills and most of my colleagues speak other languages much better than I do. I use my German and Spanish quite regularly when travelling. Just a couple of weeks ago I used my Spanish skills to help a lady who couldn’t speak great English and needed directions on public transport.

I’m nowhere near good enough, I can only speak very basic sentences etc, but it still makes a massive difference when it comes to travel and appreciating other nations and cultures.

The insularity of the British mindset, the way our media treats other countries, and the political situation with Brexit, all have a lot to do with our complete and utter contempt for learning languages in my opinion. I think a language should be mandatory in school from year 1 to GCSE. Starting early really does help - of the people I knew at school, the ones who started learning in primary school did better at GCSE, were more likely to do multiple languages and a higher proportion of them went on to do language A Levels and degrees. And yes it does make you more employable in my opinion.

Also - I am fascinated by the fact that actually there are quite a lot of people living in the U.K. these days who do speak a second language fluently, because either they grew up elsewhere or their parents did and that language is still spoken at home. I would suspect that those kids have a much better attitude for picking up other languages because I think languages are a bit like music - once you know how to play one instrument it makes it easier to pick up other instruments. But I’ve never read anything about this. I’d be interested to do so.

*aptitude not attitude ! (Maybe their attitude is better too though)

I've always placed importance on foreign languages (being forrin myself) so have taught my children two. If I wasn't multilingual myself I'd have got tutors in.

Does being forced to learn a European language when you hate it, make you more or less likely to support Brexit?

I did German A level and German and French O level. All of my 5 children did a language at GCSE - 4 did French and one did German, I think it looks not too good on a CV if you don't do a language for GCSE and some universities used to require a modern foreign language GCSE.

it is a pity people are avoding subjects that they think are hard. Don't they like a challenge.

By the way, for anyone even vaguely interested in either refreshing what they learnt at school or starting a new language, the various apps out there like Duolingo are absolutely fantastic. I would really recommend checking them out. You can do little chunks of 10 minutes a day and they’re very accessible structured so it’s not daunting at all.

I speak several languages, some better than others; the advantage of learning a language is that it really helps you understand your own. I feel sorry for the posters who see no value in broadening their horizons as languages have added so much value to my life. Of course a GCSE does not give you fluency in a language as it is little more than the first step, however it may give you the confidence to then explore and learn by yourself or even to continue with academic studies. Once you have learned any language you can apply your learning skills to others and you will be able to progress more quickly.

I find it strange languages are considered here to be difficult. I think it's more likely core subjects like Maths are even more respected after pupils have turned away from the softer subjects.
I did science Alevels then a language late 20s. I got C and Ds in sciences but an A at the language. Although it is true that the change to modular made it better/easier so i
likely would have done better in the sciences too. I think for me some subjects just had too much info and i just couldnt memorise it all. Whereas languages you build up vocabulary over time

However i do agree it's true even Alevel A is still not very fluent. Now there is more focus on grammar in English it will likely make learning other languages easier.

gcse is supposed to be level a2, which is basic conversational and a-level b2 which is advanced conversational.

Fwiw, I've been a national level athlete, I've been on tv, I run my own company and I have a degree in English literature.

The only thing that has ever made my own dcs say 'wow!' is that I have French A level