To wish there was not a decline in the number of children studying foreign languages

[ForalltheSaints]

According to a BBC survey, a 45% drop over c20 years in the number of language GCSEs taken, with a bigger drop in French, though more taking Spanish.

Apparently because they are perceived as more difficult.

I rejoice in not being the typical Brit or American abroad expecting everyone to speak English. Should we not be more encouraging, perhaps by allowing universities if they wish to insist on one language GCSE alongside English Language and Maths as a condition of entry?

If it isn’t a requirement or needed in the workplace what is the point?

I find it rather sad that that's the only measure of what should be taught in schools. I'd like to think that education is about more than just churning out workers. What about developing people's minds and enriching their lives?

Fazackerley Wed 27-Feb-19 19:08:11
I think it's sad, however if you aren't naturally good at languages they can be torture

The same can be said for maths and science. My ds at 18 is having his fourth shot at the maths GSCE- is that an argument for abolishing maths?

SmashedMug Wed 27-Feb-19 19:56:57
Languages are taught too little too late here for children to develop them properly

As a Scandinavian who started French at 12, German at 14 and Spanish at 16 and was jolly well expected to learn them I never got this argument. How come 16 is not too late to add another language on the Continent but 10 is impossibly late here?

I think your second point is the true one:

even then children are taught to exams rather than taught to write and read and speak another language. It's all about grades and passing exams. You can end up having a piece of paper saying you've got such and such amazing grade and still be useless at actually using the language in real life because you weren't taught beyond parroting etc

I was shocked to find that the French teaching my dc had in the UK consisted of composing ready-made phrases and then just repeating them, rather than (as I was taught) having the principles explained and then being expected to improvise. I am currently helping a young lad with his German GCSE: he has a whole notebook with sentences for the exam that he has written out in advance for the oral- it is very easy to hear when he repeats them that he doesn't have a clue which words mean what. So as far as his future goes this knowledge is absolutely useless: he'll never be able to make another sentence in his life. When I was at that stage I was reading French poetry- because I understood the underlying principles.

The vast majority of schools in the UK are tax-payer funded, and a lot of those tax-payers will look back on their time spent trying to learn a foreign language as a waste of time, as they never use it.

Like it or not, state education is primarily there to provide a workforce with the skills required by private business. There is a valid debate as to whether that is being done, but there is very little call from those businesses for foreign languages, so the overwhelming view is that learning a 2nd language at school is pointless, bar for the few who will go one and teach it to the next generation.

@Slowknitter - such a sensible, well reasoned post.

he has a whole notebook with sentences for the exam that he has written out in advance for the oral

Agree - my DS is doing Nat 5 French in Scotland and he has similar. He had to prepare sentences about life at school - what subjects he liked, what he didn't like, what he did on certain days of the week. All learned off by heart.

In my day (God I sound ancient) we had a "photo story" test. You'd turn over the paper and see 8 pictures showing an everyday story - i think the one I had in my exam was a family packing to go on holiday, getting into the car, going to the airport, Dad realising he'd forgotten his passport, rushing home to get it and being the last person onto the plane. You had to tell the story and had about 5 minutes to prepare it - without dictionaries or books.

Much more of a challenge than reeling off phrases you've learned in advance.

If it isn’t a requirement or needed in the workplace what is the point?

it opens the doors.
there are many employers that like to see languages as a skill - not necessarily to do the job, but to show persistence and learning attitude.
I would bet that 90% of ceos in english speaking countries speak at least one mfl well.

and then there is the additional benefit on the brain wrt dementia and recovery from brain injury.

My view is that a GCSE MFL should be compulsory. Being able to speak a foreign language is a necessary skill and we should not be clogging up the timetable with science Maths and English so that other subjects get pushed out.

My son's school teaches 3 languages. But the kids can only do one, and they can't choose which one. When he started at his school the idea was you did one language in year 7 and then the "more talented" linguists would do a second language in year 8 (which then changed to year 9). But when ds got to year 9 they'd decided only one language. So he is just doing one (which he will carry on to A level).

Why is this though? Because more than half the year 10/11 timetable is taken up with English, Maths and double/triple science so there is little room for everything else. I see no reason for science to be prioritised to such an extent. I support the ebacc and think one science GCSE should be compulsory but I don't see why you should have to do the combined science to get 2 GCSEs if you'd rather do something else.

And the idea that languages are hard is nonsense. British kids are no less intelligent than German, Dutch or Swedish kids for example. They are just as capable of learning at least one language to a decent level.

If it isn’t a requirement or needed in the workplace what is the point? The thing is my dc's MFL teachers keep trying to suggest it is very much valued in the work place and the kids don't believe them.
I hated learning languages at school but as an adult I got into languages and really enjoyed learning at my own pace and I got a real kick out of visiting the country and speaking their language - and we shared some beautiful moments with locals that we otherwise would have missed. Learning a language can be life enhancing and it is worth doing if you are interested but to be forced to learn something is not a great idea, imo - there's enough of that already!

Unless you carry on with a language, you forget it pretty quickly I agree with this but if you don't even get to GCSE level with it, you won't be able to do A level. I certainly made massive progress once I started doing my A level but you need the GCSE first. Some sixth forms teach some A level languages from scratch (eg QMC in Basingstoke offers Russian and Italian A levels for beginners). But the majority don't offer French and German for beginners.

Ifailed, given that our current political situation is showing the dangers of not putting ourselves in other people's shoes or understanding that different cultures may use language differently, we may well end up looking back on this attitude as a completely disastrous one for the country.

There are several aspects of maths and science which are never used in most jobs either. I have never yet used an equation at work, nor a knowledge of what a molecule is and there are plenty of people who get on in life completely without reference to Romeo and Julia. But they are still seen as part of a basic general education. Insisting that only English things are relevant, that Shakespeare is central to the world but Dante isn't, does make for a very insular culture. It reinforces the attitude that somehow English culture is central to the rest of the world in a way nothing else is.

if you are interested but to be forced to learn something is not a great idea, imo - there's enough of that already

but surely that also applies to Maths and science (and PE)? Do you really need Maths? Or just a decent level of numeracy?

And do you need English literature?

Presumably as we're losing freedom of movement in Brexit they will drop even further.

My view is that a GCSE MFL should be compulsory. Being able to speak a foreign language is a necessary skill You think you can speak a language after studying it to GCSE? And how long do you think you can retain this skill if it is not used frequently? - in my experience, if you don't use it - you lose it pretty quickly - do you know otherwise?

What employers?

I suspect most employers would far rather see expertise, qualifications and commitment in the areas they require. My dh doesn’t have avlanguage qualification and has always got every job he has applied for. Highly desirable skills and qualifications in the area he works in. Not entirely sure what a C in Spanish GCSE woukd bring to the party.Most CEOs aren’t in the same country as their employees let alone the same building so I doubt very much they scan CVs to monitor whether their employees have a language qualification.

An A in any A level will show a good learning attitude better than a mediocre GCSE language grade. Ditto a decent clutch of GCSEs at reasonable grades.

@havingtochangeusernameagain I do apply it to Maths - there are kids who are tortured doing GCSE Maths - they need to learn to be functionally numerate. My flatmate at Uni - sat her Maths GCSE 6 times before passing - she instantly forgot all of it but - she needed that pass to pursue her love of literature - and she was very gifted - it all seems a bit daft.

And do you need English literature? Not really - why would do you need it? The often the teaching of a text at GCSE is enough to put people off the author for life!

@Slowknitter - such a sensible, well reasoned post.

Thanks, LaFreaka. It's something I have spent a lot of time thinking about. It would be lovely to think that enthusiastic pupils with a great teacher could get to a reasonable level of conversational French/Spanish etc by the end of GCSE and somehow maintain that level for life, but none of that is actually the case. And even if it were, the vast majority would only use it once every few years to order food and buy tickets on holiday (in the country of the one language they happen to have learnt.

It's a bit depressing really. However, learning a foreign language is good for your brain and good for your understanding of your own language. I teach mostly primary MFL now. The kids are enthusiastic and I try to spread a bit of cultural awareness too.

I agree - I did a degree in English lit and loved it but it really is useless. A degree in Spanish would have opened far more doors!

They are not more difficult but there is not really a need to speak other languages. 8 do a European job covering 10 countries. We all work in English.

Losing it if you don't use it seems to apply to pretty well anything. When ds started struggling with his maths, I realised that whatever maths I had acquired beyond the basic everyday mental arithmetic was well and truly buried. And I was someone who didn't even struggle: I got a B with very little effort. I also cannot remember how to sew a neat buttonhole or the number of a single item on the periodic table.
If that is an argument against learning foreign languages, it's an argument against learning pretty well anything.

It seems a shame to me, as an MFL teacher, that we don’t encourage children to learn languages because it’s not perceived that they’re useful for work/life/travel. This ‘I’m never going to France anyway’ attitude is slightly disappointing. It doesn’t appear to me that it’s the same attitude applied to other subjects. No one seems to say ‘I’m not going to be a geographer’- they learn it just because. Surely learning for learning’s sake should be encouraged.

If the government are serious about increasing languages uptake at GCSE and A level they should be developing examinations that are easier to pass. A student getting 4,5,6 in Maths/English should expect to get the same grade in French or Spanish. But they don’t.

Surely learning for learning’s sake should be encouraged Yes, but that's called a hobby. If, as a parent, you think your child would benefit from learning, say, French, then arrange for it yourself.

In the UK we never learn a language in sufficient depth to be fluent. We don’t start early enough and we don’t allocate enough time to it. Imo the basic level of language we learn at secondary school is pretty much pointless because we don’t develop enough fluency for it to be actually useful. Plus when you grow up everyone speaks English, and wants to speak English, and is much better at it than you are at their language, so you don’t get to use any language skills you might have.