To wish there was not a decline in the number of children studying foreign languages

[ForalltheSaints]

According to a BBC survey, a 45% drop over c20 years in the number of language GCSEs taken, with a bigger drop in French, though more taking Spanish.

Apparently because they are perceived as more difficult.

I rejoice in not being the typical Brit or American abroad expecting everyone to speak English. Should we not be more encouraging, perhaps by allowing universities if they wish to insist on one language GCSE alongside English Language and Maths as a condition of entry?

It all boils down to the question of what is a well rounded education. If it is to pass exams, well then why would you waste time on irrelevant languages; just get the app. We live in France and my dc have received a wide, rich education but then they only really have the Bac to contend with at 18. They speak German, French, Spanish and Italian. My ds is doing a bac S and so will probably not use these languages on a professional basis but he has a cultural heritage that is second to none.

The down side is the exchange of truculent teens.

DC in Y9 has just picked GCSE options. Compulsory to choose one language, with the option to also do a second. Is this not the norm?

At my son's school, computer science wasn't even an option but at least one MFL was compulsory to GCSE. In today's computer-based world, that's ridiculous. They've only just started to teach computer science last year, a year too late for his GCSE options.

Lack of.computer science teaching at school hasn't been an issue thus far. Plenty of clever computer boffs out there. I'd far rather a language and dd can't wait to drop comp sci

Not the norm, Margot. It is not compulsory in England, but individual schools can choose to make it compulsory for their students if they want to. Many will not, because their results will suffer if they force a language GCSE on very reluctant kids or those with poor literacy. On the other hand, an MFL is part of the 'Ebacc', which is a performance measure for schools, so they generally want to encourage capable kids to do an MFL.

I think we might be confusing teens not wanting to learn a language with not wanting to study language as a GCSE. Ds is not doing a language at GCSE.... He had 3 options to choose and it came down to choosing between Spanish and DT. He chose DT as he enjoys it more.
However he actually loves speaking other languages and travelling. He's going on a school exchange to China soon and has been having some conversational Chinese lessons at school plus using an app to learn some phrases. The school are encouraging them to download translation apps to use when they are there. He is loving it.

I think the problem isn't that young people don't want to do languages but that we make them narrow down their choices far too early. Given the harder GCSEs many schools are limiting it to 9 subjects (which actually translates to 3 choices once maths science and English are included), often chosen when you are 12 or 13.

Its crazy how quickly we narrow down the curriculum

No there aren’t plenty of computer boffs. There are skills shortages.Aside from anything else work is going to be increasingly computer orientated. All children will need skills in computing to compete,not so much a language of which there are several to choose and none as necessary as Eng.

Hmm. Personally I don't think there's much point trying to compete with the Chinese in this area. Computer scicnec is absolutely not necessary unless you want a job in that field. Any fule can learn to use a laptop or tablet.

Any fule can learn to use a laptop or tablet

computer science isn't about using a laptop or tablet.

I know. That's all most people will ever need to do though. Yes we need some coders and engineers but it's quite a niche skill.

The world of business speaks and continues to speak english. It’s just a fact. There is no need to learn any other language.

This is only a hard reality in Western Europe, by the way. Oh, and Singapore.

All children will need skills in computing to compete,not so much a language of which there are several to choose and none as necessary as Eng.

AI will make lots of computer related jobs redundant. Creativity not coding is the way forward.

I know. That's all most people will ever need to do though

You can say that about all the other subjects though can't you? How many kids actually use trigonometry or algebra in later life that they couldn't use an app to do? How many kids need to know the periodic table or the kinetic energy equation (again easy to google)? Do kids really need to know all the ins and outs of a Shakespeare play or where the tectonic plates are?

Perhaps we need a complete overhaul of the education system now that most things we need in adult life are available at the click of a button these days? Is there really any place in modern education for learning stuff that can easily be googled for? Should we not be concentrating on teaching skills such as logic that can't easily be googled?

This is only a hard reality in Western Europe

And America, and Australia, and also Africa, India, so quite a lot of continents use English for business, not just Western Europe!

DC in Y9 has just picked GCSE options. Compulsory to choose one language, with the option to also do a second. Is this not the norm?

Probably only in selective or high performing schools in the U.K.

However, in Europe it's standard for under 18s doing academic (rather than vocational) courses to take at least two foreign languages and often they continue these in HE. My daughter in her first year in French HE has 2 MFL (both of which she speaks fluently - she took a bilingual course in high school) and will take a third next year. She's doing history and politics not languages. Even my son - who prefers computer languages to real languages - speaks two languages fluently and has enough German and Spanish to get by.

The world of business speaks and continues to speak english. It’s just a fact. There is no need to learn any other language

Sure. Other people speak English. Other people speak English really well. But who gets the contract? The organisation that sends a rep who greets in the other language, who makes a bit of an effort to throw in a few words, understands not to be sarcastic or use certain words or phrases which will offend (words which are innocuous in English and England), even though the grammar is poor and the accent is awful...or the organisation who sends a rep that doesn't bother at all? If that organisation with a dodgy but trying rep isn't English, the contract is worth millions over, say, 10 years, where does that work, money, wealth end up? In England or the other country?

Have you ever watched the Apprentice when they're sent abroad? And watched the difference in how they are dealt with by locals by making even a minimum effort?

And America, and Australia, and also Africa, India, so quite a lot of continents use English for business, not just Western Europe!

Let me refine it: where English is not the mother tongue or used as a lingua franca like in India. Many Western European countries use English internally, that is a bit unusual (Japan tries it, to not great success)

I really don't understand the desire to make children learn something that's going to be useless for the vast majority of them

You could say that about English literature. Does it really have to be compulsory? It could be a humanity option in the ebacc instead.

But most things children learn at GCSE are useless (in the extremely limited, job focused sense that 'useful' is being used on this thread) for the vast majority of them! All the maths I use in my daily life I'd learned by the age of 12 - weights, measures, percentages, bills, interest. I have run a small business and can read balance sheets and fill in VAT returns etc. Chemistry? Nope. Biology? Well, there are a few things that are interesting as general knowledge, but not really useful to me in my life - plant structure might be if I were a keen gardener, but I'm not. English literature? Drama? History?

I'm not saying that an MFL should be compulsory at GCSE, but the narrow outlook on this thread is deeply depressing. Education is both about the means and the end - should it really be just all about what you'll need in your job? The potential we all have to learn and experience and understand and create is immense, so why are we trying to shut down people's brains so early on?

I agree. Let's not forget creative arts subjects too which are slumping in popularity as the modern day obsession with stem rumbles on

Skills like critical thinking, developing and encouraging creativity and physical skills are going to be more useful and not easy to replicate by a robot or google.

Sophisticated, multi-faceted thinking, the ability to see all sides of a problem and the art of negotiation and compromise, taught by many humanities and arts subjects, would seem to be in short supply in the world. And, yes, stem subjects are useful and may be more immediately 'employable', but most people also need the creative arts to fully enjoy their lives - film, TV, music, dance, comedy, theatre, novels, even poetry.

plant structure might be if I were a keen gardener If you were a keen gardener, you'd buy a book, or a few books, you'd read up on the subject, you would follow your interests - it's what we do as adults but it's not what we do with kids - we tell them what to learn and when they don't find it at all interesting and they don't want to learn about the subjects we think are important, we call them lazy and question their intelligence and wonder why they don't value education.

Absolutely agree sunset

Computer science will be taken over by computers in 20 years anyway!

but most people also need the creative arts to fully enjoy their lives - film, TV, music, dance, comedy, theatre, novels, even poetry.

I agree, but the education system seems to turn people off rather than ignite their interests.

Do we really have to force kids to study every last full stop in of King Lear? How about Chemistry - all the excitement in open days of flashes and bangs only for the poor kids to suffer the reality of rote learning the periodic table? How about promises of CAD/CAM in tech only for them to be given a saw and sandpaper?

My son was bored rigid in school music lessons as they had to learn and be tested on listening to music and having to identify the musical instrument, or identifying if a singer was a baritone or whatever - wow, that's really going to ignite his interest isn't it??

DS got a grade 8 in GCSE German last Summer. In the Autumn, we went for a short break to Berlin - his GCSE was absolutely useless - he couldn't understand menus, timetables, or other signage. But it's OK because he knows how to tell people what subjects he likes at school and how many sisters he has!!