Why are people still deluding themselves about Michael Jackson??

[waxahatchee]

If any grown man I know invited children to sleep in his bed with him there would be absolutely no question about what was going on. I am sure that most people would agree, why are so many people still deluding themselves about this?? Makes me so cross, why do they even play his music on the radio??

Eccentric? hahaha.

He was a drug addict and a paedophile.

I think you may have a valid point as to the journalistic quality of the documentary, it may have been better if someone else had done it and done a proper job.

penchant sorry aeroflot, I need to take myself to pedants' corner

and I don't think the allegations are baseless: Phone records and faxes are suspect, purchases of cars, houses and payoffs are dubious and similarity/patterns of abuse are compelling (and yes, I am aware they share the same lawyer and yes, I am aware of Victor Gutierrez but in the same way I would have a doubt at bringing in a guilty verdict in a court of law I would definitely have a doubt at claiming MJ to be innocent...hence the Scottish verdict of Not Proven).

I think he was more than eccentric, that is the problem, people just don't want to believe the uncomfortable possibility that he could have been abusing young boys. Just because he was innocent in court proves nothing, he may have a very good lawyer.

Drug addiction does not mean someone is a bad person. That’s a separate thing and unrelated to the alleged pedophilia.

None of us know, but to vilify a man (a dead one at that) that has not been convicted of these crimes is saddening

I have not heard this said about Jimmy Saville who is also dead and was never convicted. Why do we see more sympathy for MJ.

I haven't seen the documentary.

However, we know he has 5 accusers.
We know others allege witnessing the abuse.
We know he had photos of nude young boys.
We know he shared his bed with young boys.
We know that his fingerprints, and those of his accusers, were found in the same pages of his book of images of nude young boys.
We know he gave alcohol to young boys.
We know he entered into multi-million dollar settlements.
We know his bedroom was alarmed.

I know what I believe.

Just because he was innocent in court proves nothing

@Aeroflotgirl

Please stop saying he was found innocent. The correct wording is "not guilty".

There is a reason why the verdicts in court cases are either "guilty" or "not guilty"

It's not "guilty" and "innocent".

I'd also be very interested if anyone can back up the claim that both of the accusers, in the documentary, changed their story 6 times. Obviously they have changed their story, but I can't find evidence of the '6 times' claim.

Snopes has debunked the myth that Jordan Chandler admitted to lying. A line was taken from an interview and completely twisted

If it was so easy to disprove these allegations then MJ defenders would not have to resort to posting lies and smearing the accusers personal lives.

I have not heard this said about Jimmy Saville who is also dead and was never convicted. Why do we see more sympathy for MJ.

Because although the documentary against Saville was shown a year after he died, it led to a police investigation whereby 300 complainants came forward.

In Jackson's case, the new allegations were four years after and only one more person has come forward since, who has also written about Jackson for monetary gain.

So you have an avalanche of accusations with Saville but, because there is no new evidence with Jackson (it is new witness testimony but no new evidence in a legal sense) and some of the previous testimony from others came from staff with credibility issues hence the not guilty verdict, and the two original complaints Chandler and Arviso won't speak out...all that adds up to it being less clear-cut (not that abuse is clear-cut - if anything, it shows that you can have the paradox of someone being loved/generous and abusive/manipulative at the same time.

If it was so easy to disprove these allegations then MJ defenders would not have to resort to posting lies and smearing the accusers personal lives.

Totally agree with you - but because this is the era of fake news, internet and chinese whispers, statements need to be checked and double-checked before being quoted as fact and sources need to be given and verified.
That goes for both sides. I have no skin in the game, and believe that Jackson was most probably a hebephile but I have also seen across the net and across both MN MJ threads statements which are factually incorrect, both for and against Jackson.

I’m watching it

Wades whole family went to the Grand Canyon for 5 days leaving him at Neverland when they had only met Michael the day before. HOW fucked up??!

I'm really shocked and horrified having watched the documentary now. I recommend that everyone in any doubt should watch it.

The stories are so similar and the details of them that I very much doubt this was made up. Really and truly. The most awful, saddest thing is that the boys, when they got passed over for the latest new 'friend' actually wanted MJ to abuse them because they had been made to feel like his partner and it had become what they expected.

Years ago, the picture that was painted was that MJ would have sleepovers with many children all together. Strange enough. But We were not presented with the reality which was MJ repeatedly took one young boy at a time everywhere with him and treated them like it was an adult relationship.

Any doubts I had that he was guilty are gone.

I’m sickened by the comments saying these men are lying because they are behaving a certain way. Trauma, sexual abuse and grooming can severely damage the way a person functions especially at such a young age. It’s very common for people to see or sound detached.

Many children defend their abusers and carry this into adulthood. Victims of abuse, not just childhood sexual abuse, do make statements and retract them. We see this all the time in domestic abuse as well as history childhood sexual abuse.

The documentary was moving and traumatic and distressing. I believe them. My heart aches for those who were harmed and also for MJ’s children.

Saville was extraordinarily prolific though. Plus the circumstances of each man's death was very different.

Though and open secret to many, nothing had ever been published or reported about saville before. Whereas MJ's settlement and court cases had been public knowledge for years. As soon as Jackson died their was a huge amount of propaganda put out by the Jackson estate, followed by album re-releases, documentaries and gushing celebrates discussing Michael's genius. No-one mentioned the elephant in the room for years following his death and many people, like me, found it very strange and unsettling.

I have do believe that there were many soulless, money-grabbing, vampires with no morals surrounding MJ, but these boys weren't them.

Also watched the interview with Mark Lester, who was in MJ inner circle for many years, both were God parents to each others children, and says he nothing to make he suspect any sexual abuse. ML may be the father of Paris Jackson. The whole thing is all sorts of fucked up.

So many spelling and grammar mistakes in my last post, sorry.

How can they be allegations. These are men describing their boyhoods.

In this instance it's a boyhood infused with abuse from a singer.

Along with many other boys.

True @derxa - the whole thing is a shitshow.

I may sound fucked up or detached when I talk about the latest death I've had too grieve for.

The first brutal death knocked me senseless... probably never get over it.
Second same ish. Third expected and cried more in 3 week's than my whole life.

But after quite practical.

@BlooperReel thank you for your kind words. Yes DSis and I are currently having therapy.

@unicornsrule

They talk fondly of michael when talking about everything

I'm sorry, you really don't get it. I loved my abusive F and grieved for him when he died, as contradictory as that sounds. I'd repressed the memories of the childhood abuse, although he always made my skin crawl when he was alive. And the contradictory feelings made me feel really guilty.

It's so confusing for a child when the adult caring for you tells you they love you, looks after you and does nice things for you, but at the same time hurts you. That's why sex crimes against children are so heinous.

Just to comment on the bit about Wades parents going on holiday and leaving Wade with Michael for 5 days only one day after meeting him; that's not quite true. They had met Michael previously - over a year before,she was pushy then and kept trying. Wades mother was chasing Michael and trying to get him interested in Wade. She even tracked down his number. This she has stated herself in other interviews.

So not quite what she's saying now.

@TripTrapTripTrapOverTheBridge

They had met, I know that
But except from the meetings at concerts that was literally the only time they had ever spent time with him - and they left him with Wade