Why are people still deluding themselves about Michael Jackson??

[waxahatchee]

If any grown man I know invited children to sleep in his bed with him there would be absolutely no question about what was going on. I am sure that most people would agree, why are so many people still deluding themselves about this?? Makes me so cross, why do they even play his music on the radio??

You don't have to go any further than that! MJ used children to satisfy some need in himself. He did whatever he did for his own selfish reasons and what he freely acknowledged doing was unusual, at best, psychologically damaging at least...

This.
It was the replacing of the 'favourite' and the playing them off against each other which was bloody awful without even delving into what went on behind closed doors.

Was he weird? Yes. Crazy? Yes. Abuser? Really not sure he had it in him. Suspect others feel the same.

I think he was very capable of a non violent abuse of these boys. Kissing and stroking may not upset a child but as an adult you would know it was wrong.

I've watched both parts and 100% believe them. Safechuck in particular is very convincing and a very damaged person as a result of the abuse. I hope he will be ok. Robson seems to have worked through his issues a bit better

@bluetit101

*No, but it does help you notice some of the signs and behaviours.

I said possibly he could have been on the spectrum. What's wrong with me saying that? It's been said many times before by other people.

Like I said, MY opinion.*

Which, like everyone on here, you are entitled to but please provide a source where other people have claimed this or at the very least, indicate what symptoms/behaviours have resonated with you/your experience.

Whilst the adage of you meet a person with autism, you've only met that person with autism holds true...using status, power and wealth to surround yourself with enablers rather than listening to advisers, family and legal, telling you your behaviour is inappropriate...means you have ASD now? I don't know where to start with that.

I think he was very capable of a non violent abuse of these boys. Kissing and stroking may not upset a child but as an adult you would know it was wrong. That's what don't understand about the people trying to defend him!

MJ himself said that those behaviours went on, over a very long time with numerous children. It is wrong, very wrong!

@RageAgainstTheVendingMachine

It's been said many times that MJ possibly had Aspergers.

Take away all of the child abuse allegations and inappropriate behaviour - you're saying that if you had experience of ASD you wouldn't look at MJ, his ways, obsessions, social awkwardness, childish behaviour.. you wouldn't think there was a possibility? I'm not in any way condoning any wrong doing, if there has been any, based on that I think he may have had ASD. I'm saying that would explain some of his ways, that are nothing to do with child abuse or inappropriate relationships with children. That's the point I was trying to make.

Look, I said in my first post, I may be wrong. And I may well watch this programme tonight and change my mind completely.

Yes its ridiculous isnt it EarlyModernParent as though having money-grabbing, fame-hungery parents is protection from abuse instead of a significant risk factor.

As to the idea that MJ was an innocent. This is a man who had complete control of every album, every tour, all his choreography. He was a respected business man in the music industry not some poor defenceless child in a man's body.

Quincy Jones, Liza Minnelli, Lisa Marie Presley, Spike Jones have all been quoted saying that Michael's actual voice was as deep and manly as any other normal post pubescent mans. What sort of person fakes a childlike, fragile persona?
He definitely 'had it in him'.

Why would he be so blatent? Because he could and he did get away with it. He died facing zero consequences for what he did to those boys.

I think there too many accusers for there not to be truth in it. I believe them.
He was a man with a lot of money who 'groomed' whole families.
For those saying why have his accusers come forward now would you say the same to a woman reporting historic rape? To Savilles victims?

It's been said many times that MJ possibly had Aspergers
Who? When? No credible sources.
you're saying that if you had experience of ASD you wouldn't look at MJ, his ways, obsessions, social awkwardness, childish behaviour.. you wouldn't think there was a possibility?
I do have experience of ASD yes and no, I don't see it. I see someone with various disorders and a damaging childhood but who was also manipulative and able to lie (aspies usually do not manipulate unless they have a PDA profile).

What's a pda profile?

Watching and already can see the grooming....

PDA = pathological demand avoidance
Am also watching. Neither mother has come across well.
Further discussion over in telly addicts.

Wades family left him with MJ for 5 days while they went and toured the Grand Canyon?!? I think he was 7 at the time.

Wades family left him with MJ for 5 days while they went and toured the Grand Canyon?!? I think he was 7 at the time

And they had only properly met him days earlier. I couldn't believe it when the mother said she left him there!

I'm raging over the mothers and their fond recollections of when their child was marked out as special. Separated from them in the hotel so they could have the best suite. There is no anger, no guilt or reflection. I believe the two men, can't understand the mother 's reactions.

I’m going to watch at the weekend maybe
I hadn’t decided whether I will or not yet

WRT Wade in my previous comments as him not being credibl, I did not lump James in with the same accusation. From what I have heard James is very credible and clearly struggling.

Wade hasn’t helped his own credibility - through his own decisions and trauma reactions,- whatever that may be. I think that ultimately unfortunately this is almost like what you could describe as the fly in the ointment - for people to believe victims, credibility is the key isn’t it? In any case, anywhere. No one has gone looking for errors in Wades account, Wade himself chose denial and continued to work with the Jacksons for a long time. Whether this was right or wrong of him is not for me to decide, but these actions have led to him being seen as unreliable or not credible. That is what I was trying to say. I can only try to imagine he thought speaking out was a waste of time and pointless and perhaps tried to get on with his life in his own way.

@dayswithaY
The mothers behaviour and decisions certainly made it a lot easier for MJ to abuse the kids.

He was a respected business man in the music industry not some poor defenceless child in a man's body.

Exactly.

for people to believe victims, credibility is the key isn’t it?

Yes and sadly people have a very preconceived idea of what is credible based on ?????.... I have no idea. So child doesn’t disclose at the time = not credible, the child discloses then retracts = not credible, the child cannot remember certain pieces of information = not credible, the child continues to see the suspect = not credible, the child is loyal to the suspect = not credible, the child seeks compensation = not credible. All of these are issues raised by doubters who quite frankly know next to nothing about the psychology of child abuse victims. Add into that drugs & alcohol or mental illness further down the line and you have an excellent line of attack against any victim wishing to make disclosures of abuse. I’m afraid that all of these factors occur very commonly in sexual abuse cases involving children and absolutely do not automatically indicate a lack of credibility. I would go on and expand further but I’ve already contributed earlier in the thread as have other child protection professionals.

MJ was definitively a child abuser. Putting to one side whether or not this included sexual abuse, he played with their emotions and coerced them into inappropriate and damaging liaisons. The industry in which he worked both permitted and encouraged this, has always done so and will continue to do so as long as the money keeps rolling in. Now its morphing into instagram and Utube vlogging. Children will always be put up for sale -selling their talent and charm, not their bodies - by avaricious adults and there will always be buyers. MJ was one of these precocious children once, exploited by his own family.

In an ideal world credibility shouldn’t be what matters. But to public opinion it does. the world is horribly cynical and any sign of weakness or mistakes will be ripped apart

It’s so hard to explain what I am trying to say.
I have personal experience of being accused of not being credible in a very similar situation to these men. I have been disbelieved. I know that in reality credibility IS the key. People (public opinion perhaps) seem to want to always see evidence or will pick over what someone did or didn’t do, because we seem to be conditioned to ‘innocent until proven guilty’ for a perpetrator but ‘lying until proven is truthful’ for victims

PookieDo I wasn’t trying to argue with you I was agreeing with you. The problem is that people are very quick to spout off their opinion which has no basis. We want our victims to present themselves and behave in a certain way. We also want to believe that the “ evil” is something outside that we will recognise when we see it so that we can pull our children away from it. We don’t want to believe the evil is in our families or our homes so when a child discloses ( unusual) then we don’t WANT to believe it’s true and look for evidence to why the child is wrong “ she’s mistaken” “she was dreaming” “ she’s always lying” “there’s no evidence” - WHAT EVIDENCE DO PEOPLE EXPECT TO HAVE? - shouting for emphasis because I’m tired of people making that stupid comment. Offenders are not going to perform for CCTV cameras or write in their diaries what they’ve done. Sadly I’ve dealt with a number of cases where children have disclosed to their families and were not believed and it has only led to psychological problems down the line. It takes a very brave individual to go up against someone as famous a MJ when so many fans are prepared to maintain his innocence without even a flicker of regard for the fact it might be true.

@longwayoff you are so, so right. Everyone is focusing on the sexual abuse, but it was only half the story. I imagine the emotional abuse was just as damaging. Thank you for pointing that out.

I felt so sad listening to the boys when they realised they had been replaced by younger kids. Sexual abuse, emotional abuse, turning them against women and their own parents...

Something that has really shocked me with this thread is how MJ has been so casually labeled as a pedophile when he was proven INNOCENT. This is a man who went through a 10 year FBI investigation. Two raids of Neverland. A strip search. A gruelling and public trial where he was (I will repeat) proven INNOCENT. Yet still, “of course he is a pedophile”.

Yes I get it. Young kids (not just boys) having sleepovers, getting into bed and watching movies with him. it’s weird. As mentioned earlier on in the thread, if someone like J Corbyn or Bob down the street was doing that, sure he’s probably a pedophile. The thing that we have to remember is that Michael Jackson was unique. He wasn’t an ordinary bloke. There has never been and will never be another person like him. We ordinary folk cannot even begin to imagine his life. Incredibly famous from such a young age, forever in the limelight, more so than any other celebrity. Never able to do normal things like go to the grocery store. Never. Never even able to have normal conversations with people, because he was constantly treated like a superstar. Surrounded by people pleasers and yes men. People throwing themselves at him, at his car, crying at the mere sight of him. All from when he was a young boy. He never had a normal life, never had normal social interactions. Didn’t know what was normal behavior. It’s fascinating really. So we can’t judge him as a “normal” man. So when such a gruelling criminal investigation says that he’s innocent, I will believe it. Yes it was inappropriate to have close friendships with children, but he was a man who misunderstood the world and I’m not going to paint him as a pedophile because “oh he had boys in his bed so he must have touched them”. If he was truly a pedophile, based on the number of children he had “access” to, there would be far more stories coming out. It was not just “the famous boys” Culkin and Feldman who have said that he did not touch them, look up Brett Barnes, Talun Zeitun or Nathan Cavaleri.

As for Wade Robson, his mother said he is such a good liar he should win an Oscar. He called himself the master of deception. He comes across as nothing but a bitter man. He only made these claims when the MJ estate refused to allow him to direct Cirque Du Soleil. And Safechuck only came forward when he saw that Robson was suing for millions. And the director of Leaving Neverland should not be able to call it a documentary. A completely one sided story with no evidence is not at all factual.

If you are going to have an opinion on MJ, please base it on fact (go and read the FBI’s report) and not on something you’ve read in The Sun.