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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why Sajid Jarvis was so quick to remove Shamima Begum’s British nationality

503 replies

MrsSchadenfreude · 22/02/2019 15:54

But has done nothing about removing Asma Assad’s? Asma Assad is a dual British-Syrian National, so why not deprive her (and her kids) of British nationality? I can’t quite believe that the government hasn’ Done this. Why on Earth not?

OP posts:
BejamNostalgia · 24/02/2019 02:06

But even if they were, isn’t it better that we de-radicalise jihadis than just punish them?

The problem is that deradicalisation doesn’t always work, even when the authorities think it has. There have been attacks by people who had been deradicalised and deradicalisation of prisoners failed badly for a long time until the most radical prisoners were removed from the general prison population and we’ve had some returnees from Guantánamo getting involved in questionable activities.

The way I look at it, it’s a gamble. If the gamble pays off, Shamima gets to live a nice comfy quiet and anonymous life, costing the state quite a bit of money for living costs and surveillance but she and her family are content.

If the gamble doesn’t pay off, however, the outcome may well be that either Shamima or someone she radicalises may harm or kill an entirely innocent person or group of people.

Now, in my opinion, I would not view the death of a number of innocent people as anywhere near a reasonable price to pay in return for Shamima coming back to a comfortable western life. I wouldn’t want to take that risk. Shamima has done something very wrong and willingly associated with an evil group doing horrendous things so I don’t find it acceptable that her wish for a comfortable life should trump the safety of a potential victim.

The problem always seems to me about people who want her and others like her here, is that they fail to see the link between cause and effect. They only see the benefits of SB returning and their vision just stops there. Victims don’t exist for them until the point they’re stabbed or blown up. And even when that happens, supporters of these sort of people pretend that it’s all just come out of nowhere and couldn’t have been prevented. Previous examples of that are one of Lee Rigby’s killers who had been involved in terror in Kenya and one of the London Bridge attackers who had been on TV airing his extremist views.

I really object to this idea that only extremists have rights to be protected purely because we don’t know yet who the people they could hurt or kill are until they attack. It means whilst extremists have their rights very much protected, the rest of us just have to hope that we’re not in the wrong place at the wrong time and our right to life lies simply in the hands of jihadists who may or may not take it away.

Just as an example, there have been times before when people have been interned because they were a danger. Oswald Moseley, the leader of the British Union of Facists and his wife Diana Mitford were interned at Holloway during WWII. Her sister Unity would have been as well but she wasn’t because she shot herself in the head when war was declared which left her severely disabled. And ISIS was very much at war with us too.

As far as bringing her back and the prospect of her being tried or imprisoned etc: I don’t have a great deal of faith in the justice system at the moment. Particularly not in its ability to keep people who are a danger locked up. Look at the John Worboys decision and that man who killed three children and impaled them on railings. And John Venables who was repeatedly breaking his parole conditions with the knowledge of his probation officer and only got recalled when the police inadvertently caught him trying to destroy a hard drive full of CSE images when they were actually trying to protect him.

If I genuinely felt that she would come here and be safely managed as a threat I would think it was the best option. But I honestly don’t believe she would be. I think she would be fully lawyered up and on legal aid fighting every single bit of control the state tried to have.

Another reason I don’t want her back here is because of her interviews and the impression I’m getting. She’s not regretful and she’s not remorseful. In fact most of what she says seems calculated to cause maximum offence and as much resistance to her return as possible.

I believe the offence she is causing is intentional. I think if she came back here she would be regularly displaying and crowing every single penny the state spent on her, every concession she got, every right she won. I think a lot of lawyers would be queuing up to make vexatious complaints about every contact she had with the state and demanding compensation and special treatment.

I think she would be just like those poppy burning Muslims or Anjem Choudhury with his ‘Islam will dominate the World’ protestors. I think the intention of ISIS is that she should come here and act as an agent provocateur, sowing division and fomenting anger.

And again, I don’t think any of this is worth gambling with in order to give a woman who joined a murderous cult an easy life.

BejamNostalgia · 24/02/2019 02:13

He says he has been living in Bangladesh for part of the year since well before Shamima was born, since the mid 90s, he was still married to her mother. I would presume that means that Shamima also lived there part time.

BejamNostalgia · 24/02/2019 02:47

The information coming out of the last stronghold now is that the severed heads of 50 Yazidi sex slaves have been found some of which may belong to pregnant children from the age of 10. The escaping Yazidi are telling tales of terrible torture not just by the ISIS men but by ISIS women who used them as household slaves too.

Shamima was with this group until very recently so it may be a possibility that some may be able to testify against her, although it is quite likely that the 50 recently murdered Yazidi have been killed precisely to stop them from testifying about their crimes.

So if they’re gone, their voices are gone and they cannot say what was done to them. Which of course will mean they and their apologists will demand they are treated as innocent because their brutality has removed any witnesses.

For that reason, I’d like to see membership of ISIS as a crime in itself making all members accessories to the bloodshed.

They really need to start treating these as war crimes.

Dungeondragon15 · 24/02/2019 09:56

Good post BejamNostalgia.

It's not often that I am on the side of the "non-liberal" or "racist" but in this case I think those who think that SB should be brought back into the UK to face "our justice" are being outstandingly naive. She joined a group that have committed terrible atrocities and very probably committed them herself but due to the fact that it happened in another country and most of the victims are dead it is very likely that we won't be able to prosecute her successfully so she will get away with it if she comes back. I read somewhere that only one in 10 returning Jahidists have been prosecuted which says it all. She is no victim and if she comes back there is a very good chance that innocent people will die as a consequence.

There should be a law the enables the UK to put someone in prison for many years for joining a terrorist group but apparently there isn't. Therefore the best thing is for her to be left in Syria for as long as possible. Removing her British Citizenship is a good way of doing this. The only negative as far as I can see is that would be unfair to Bangladesh if she was actually forced on them. I doubt that will happen though and she will be given her British Citizenship back.
I'm sorry if the situation makes those with dual nationality feel insecure but all you have to do to avoid the situation is not join a terrorist group that tortures and kills people.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 24/02/2019 10:05

Bejam, if you talk darkly about using AS to research the posting history of unnamed people who don't agree with your views

The funny thing is that the odds are really good that i do agree with bejams views

MadCatEnthusiast · 24/02/2019 11:14

He says he has been living in Bangladesh for part of the year since well before Shamima was born, since the mid 90s, he was still married to her mother. I would presume that means that Shamima also lived there part time.

He moved there to marry another wife who lives there. That doesn't mean her mother lived there too. He's the only one who divides his time between the two countries, he'd have said "her mother is lying, she's been living here too!" if she did live part time

bellabasset · 24/02/2019 11:18

This young woman was born of Bangladeshi parents in the UK, where her father has returned and remarried. Their daughter at 15 had access to the internet and decided to join ISIS. It was their responsibility to prevent this, although easier said than done. We don't know what she has been involved in since she left the UK. We know that she has had three pregnancies and her first two children died in infancy. In a report I read yesterday she is living in a tent, wearing tattered trainers and a stained dress.

Sajid Javid has removed her UK citizenship, he has had legal advice before doing this. It is understandable that the government doesn't want terrorists to return to the UK. The question her situation raises is if foreign nationals bring up children in the UK at what age should those children have a right to UK citizenship. When you read Bejam's post it gives you the shivers to think of people with the hatred and inhumanity to carry out these atrocities walking the streets of our country.

I think Sajid Javid's action makes more sense to me now.

derxa · 24/02/2019 11:24

Her father has effectively disowned her if what the papers say today is true. SB is part of the rump of IS. The real diehards.

BertrandRussell · 24/02/2019 11:27

I don’t understand why where her parents live makes any difference to her nationality/citizenship.

MadCatEnthusiast · 24/02/2019 11:28

The question her situation raises is if foreign nationals bring up children in the UK at what age should those children have a right to UK citizenship.

I don't get how that isn't grouping people together?

MadCatEnthusiast · 24/02/2019 11:30

I don’t understand why where her parents live makes any difference to her nationality/citizenship.

It really doesn't.

Budsbegginingspringinsight · 24/02/2019 11:39

Agree bejam esp on the accessory to crime.

As I've kept saying we just don't know what this girl did,we don't even know what current networks, friends she still has.

Did she have a yadizi girl in the house? DID her neighbour s? We just don't know.
There needs too be consistency and all information gathered whilst all terrorists held then go from there.

I cannot fathom this panicked Rush too get her back on UK soil?!

BejamNostalgia · 24/02/2019 11:44

She joined a group that have committed terrible atrocities and very probably committed them herself but due to the fact that it happened in another country and most of the victims are dead it is very likely that we won't be able to prosecute her

Exactly. In fact in one of her interviews she very much gave the impression she had done things wrong because she talked about Javid saying ‘he doesn’t have any proof’. She didn’t deny doing these things. She just said he had no proof.

All these people saying we should bring them back are signing the death warrants for those still in ISIS’s hands because they’re going to be killing anyone who can testify so that they can return to the west and stay free.

Any sort of membership, support of ISIS by foreigners should be a serious offence. Not just those members who have left someone alive.

He moved there to marry another wife who lives there. That doesn't mean her mother lived there too. He's the only one who divides his time between the two countries

Well I suppose conceivably she would never have been to Bangladesh even though her parents were still married, in a sexual relationship and conceived Shamima whilst her father was living there at least some of the time. But it’s very unlikely.

Polygamy is legal in Bangladesh too, so a new wife doesn’t mean the family had split up.

Budsbegginingspringinsight · 24/02/2019 11:45

.... it's not often I'm on the side of the non liberal...

Grin

I'm liberal, I want us all to exist in a liberal free UK where we are all free enjoying the liberal laws we have too Keep us safe enjoying our freedoms.

I do not want a far right murderous cult... murdering us, slitting our throats... frightening us and impeding us going about our free liberal lives.

Dungeondragon15 · 24/02/2019 11:45

I don’t understand why where her parents live makes any difference to her nationality/citizenship.

Maybe it doesn't make any difference to her citizenship but it makes her claim that she has never even visited Bangladesh look less likely.

Thymeout · 24/02/2019 11:47

The Times journalist, who interviewed SB, on her own, one-to-one, with no minders, said that, in his view, she could be rehabilitated. He's interviewed many ISIS members, including the two remaining Beatles. He said she was v bitter about her dh having been imprisoned and tortured for 6 months on allegations of being a spy. Although previously she enjoyed her life in the Caliphate, she was critical of the regime's corruption in recent times.

You can read the article if you follow a link on Guardian on-line to the Times and register. No charge.

Budsbegginingspringinsight · 24/02/2019 11:51

Being a member of Isis should automatically come with prison sentence Etc but to say she's enjoyed life in the caliphate.....if that's the society she's enjoyed she needs to go to Iran and Saudi or Afghanistan.. those society's live more in line with what she wants.

Budsbegginingspringinsight · 24/02/2019 11:54

The big problem is on here... clearly some posters have solid faith in the police and the law.

The Idea that it's a brilliant system too catch criminals and stop crime. Unfortunately it's not a great system and without shit hot intelligent detectives on it.. I don't give much hope for anything.

BejamNostalgia · 24/02/2019 12:06

I don’t understand why where her parents live makes any difference to her nationality/citizenship.

It really doesn't

Well yes it does actually. There are several articles online about this by immigration lawyers and the consensus is that it is perfectly legal.

There has been a case ongoing for several years involving two men over 21 that GB wanted to strip of citizenship who had two Bangladeshi parents with Bangladeshi citizenship.

The outcome of that case resolved between Bangladesh and the UK that children of Bangladeshi citizens aged under 21 automatically have Bangladeshi citizenship and the UK can therefore strip UK citizenship legally without leaving them stateless. In that case, because the men were over 21 they retained their UK citizenship. Shamima is 19 so according to the precedents and agreements between the states over recent months her UK citizenship can be legally stripped and Shamima retain only Bangladeshi citizenship.

There are more details here:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/02/bangladesh-doesnt-want-shamima-begum-heres-why-it-might-have-to-take-her/amp/

The country her parents reside in is also relevant because Shamima’s fans would argue that she does not know anyone in Bangladesh and has not been there so she shouldn’t be sent there on humanitarian grounds. In fact her father (who claims that they were in touch right up to her disappearance) is there and she may well have spent much time there, we don’t know, that’s something that would need to be established. However knowing the area she is from very, very well, it would be almost unheard of for a child to reach adulthood without visiting Bangladesh and virtually impossible that she is not fluent in Sylhet.

So having a father that she knows well in Bangladesh demolishes what would be one of her most powerful arguments for being returned here.

The only one she has left is that her son is a British citizen and needs her here to care for him. Presumably she’ll stay in the camp while legal action is taken but if conditions are very bad there she may choose to go to Bangladesh.

But yeah madcat, best not to be patronising unless you’re sure you’re right, eh?

MadCatEnthusiast · 24/02/2019 12:06

*Well I suppose conceivably she would never have been to Bangladesh even though her parents were still married, in a sexual relationship and conceived Shamima whilst her father was living there at least some of the time. But it’s very unlikely.

Polygamy is legal in Bangladesh too, so a new wife doesn’t mean the family had split up.*

To go to Bangladesh with a British passport which she's has had up till now, she'd have needed a visa therefore Bangladesh would know and say she's been there then she hasn't. She's never applied for a Bangladeshi passport too so how would immigration officials not know she's been there?

I don't get the insistence that she has more ties now?

I can relate with her as my family was set up like that for a bit and I have never ever visited my parents' country. I can totally see SB not going there either.

Dungeondragon15 · 24/02/2019 12:18

To go to Bangladesh with a British passport which she's has had up till now, she'd have needed a visa therefore Bangladesh would know and say she's been there then she hasn't. She's never applied for a Bangladeshi passport too so how would immigration officials not know she's been there?

I don't think she would need a visa if she is with a parent who has a Bangladesh passport.

BejamNostalgia · 24/02/2019 12:19

The Times journalist, who interviewed SB, on her own, one-to-one, with no minders, said that, in his view, she could be rehabilitated.

He’s a journalist who has spent a few hours with her. He’s not a psychologist. He’s not a lawyer. And he’s also written an article today saying she was verbally abusive and threatening towards him.

And again, the question is not so much ‘can she be rehabilitated?’, it’s ‘is it worth the risk of rehabilitating her’?

If a returnee is a child who was taken there unwillingly (for example Sally Jones son Jojo or the children who were taken by the Didsbury family), there is quite a strong argument that we should. They had no choice.

But in Shamima’s case, as I said, you need to weigh up the gamble that deradicalisation didn’t work and she harmed innocent people against the benefits. She’s probably not entitled to British citizenship and likely wouldn’t even be allowed to bring up her son. The only ‘benefit’ for anybody would be that Shamima had a comfortable western life.

If Shamima blew up or stabbed one of your children, would you say that it had been worth the gamble?

MadCatEnthusiast · 24/02/2019 12:21

Bejam

Now you're just missing my point. Her father living there was not a secret. The UK, Bangladesh and even the media knew this as this was revealed before Bangladesh said what they've said.

It's perfectly fine for her to have her father living there but it's not a solid indication that she's been there which is what I am saying and having parents from Bangladesh doesn't mean you'll be definitely fluent in Sylheti especially when you're surrounded with English for 8 hours a day at school but that, of course, can and be ascertained with a language test.

BejamNostalgia · 24/02/2019 12:25

To go to Bangladesh with a British passport which she's has had up till now, she'd have needed a visa therefore Bangladesh would know and say she's been there then she hasn't.

Children of Bangladeshi parents in the UK can travel to Bangladesh on NVR, no visa required. They’ve not said if she’s been there or not. I don’t imagine there’s been time to check. But regardless, she is legally a Bangladeshi citizen and she has family she knows there.

Bangladesh are almost certainly the ones in the wrong by refusing to accept her.

wigglypiggly · 24/02/2019 12:27

I didnt think she had a British passport, didnt she steal her sisters to go to Syria.