To have left

[Whatisthisfuckery]

On Sunday my sister invited me and DS 11 up to spend a couple of days with her and her two DC. I thought me and DS could do with a change of scenery so we went yesterday morning. Train tickets cost £70 and the journey was crap, standing all the way.

Anyway we went for a meal at a local pub Before we left we popped to the toilet. My sis called her DS, also 11, into the womens’ toilets. I said to her that I didn’t think it was right that an 11 yo boy should be in the womens’ toilets. Her DS is tiny and he’s no bother but we were in a busy family pub and the toilets had people in and out all the time. She said she didn’t want her DS in the mens’ by himself because it’s not safe. I told her I still disagreed and that he’s too old and he should learn to respect female space.

When we got out her DD 9 said ‘if I saw a boy coming out of the womens’ I’d think it was weird.’ I said to my sis that she’d just heard it out of the mouth of her own DD. Sis went nuts at this. All the walk home she was shouting at me. I still wouldn’t agree with her that it’s fine to allow her 11 yo boy in the womens’ toilets so it went from I don’t agree with you because of x y and z, to ‘you just can’t accept anyone else having an opinion can you.’ I pointed out that I can, I just don’t agree. Then she went batshit, shouting right up in my face, throwing accusations and waving her arms and stamping her feet. She really lost it.

By this time my DS was like wtf? Can we leave, this is crazy. I told him to grab his kit and we went outside to get a taxi.

Sis then comes out twice to try and get us to go back in and stay and I said ‘no, I’m not putting up with that behaviour.’ Then the third time she came out and said sorry she’d lost it and could we please just stay, it was 9:30pm by then. I was about to talk to her and reconsider when she shouted,’’my two kids are in there breaking their hearts because of the way you were shouting,’ so I said ‘no, you’re still blaming me for your behaviour so no, I’m not having that.’

When she went in and we were waiting for the taxi DS said that the last time she’d come out she’d bought her DD out holding a heart shaped love cushion thing. I’ve got bad eyes so I didn’t even see.

So what I want to know is was I being unreasonable? I was so bloody angry that she couldn’t have a disagreement without having a massive toddler tantrum, but more over, that she’d shown her DD that her feelings didn’t matter and gone on to kick off in such a way that completely undermined her DD. Then she’d bought her DD out to use her as emotional blackmail to get us to stay. IMO she behaved terribly but am I over reacting.

YABU.

I would rather my 11yr old son came in to the Ladies than go in to the mens if I felt it was unsafe. Your put your own safety (from a child ) ahead of an 11yr old boys.

You stirred it. You antagonised her. You couldn't respect her view at all - you showed this by repeatedly stating you didn't agree because you saw your own view as superior. Narcissists do that OP. It's the same as whitewashing someones view by using "but..." to start your response. A total dick move and you sound like a total drama queen to boot.

Yabvvvu.

@rivertam stop being pathetic. This is an 11yr old child using the bathroom with his mother. Not a predatory teenager or a grown male. Get a grip.

Bloody hell. My DS was still coming into the Ladies toilets with me at 11. Why is that an issue? He nips into a cubicle, does what he needs to, comes out, washes his hands and leaves. Same as every woman or girl in there. He didn’t see anything he shouldn’t. He didn’t make anyone feel uncomfortable.

I’m completely in agreement with a lot of the issues re women’s spaces etc but an 11 year old boy now can’t go into the ladies with his mum? My DH used to prefer me to take DS to the Ladies as he reckoned Men’s toilets could be filthy.

Children have been assaulted in toiiets. Would you want that rather than just let a young boy use the ladies? Seriously?

There is politically correct and just plain ridiculous. You were ridiculous.

MN sure is a strange place.

An 8yo is apparently perfectly capable of going into a swimming pool changing room alone, getting changed, sorting out their stuff and putting it reliably into a locker not the ones I know. But an 11yo can't go to the toilet on his own in a pub. Now I get that some pubs are dodgy but this is one they had chosen to take a group of kids into so presumably you would be more selective.

OP I would have been about the 11 year old too, but sometimes it really isn't worth making a scene over something that doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme of things. So I think that both of you were unreasonable.

so what? There were families there, there could be girls his age or younger in the loo alone who, regardless of who he is with, do not want an 11 year old boy in there.

I am getting fed up to the back fucking teeth of girls being expected to just shut up and shove over because male spaces are unsafe for males. Sort that out, why don't you, and leave girls alone. Push more more unisex facilities to exist alongside single sex facilities. Get your menfolk to start calling out bad male behaviour every fucking time they witness it, so that male spaces can be safe for boys.

But stop dumping the problem on girls and women, and then telling women and girls to shut up when they speak up against it.

Your niece didn’t say she would be scared she said she would think it was weird. At which point you could have explained about hidden disabilities or indeed girls that look like boys. My pal at school was forever being a accused of being a boy. You could have also said to the niece she doesn’t ever need to stay anywhere she feels uncomfortable.
You had a fight with your sister. Stop pretending it’s cause you are morally superior and a better parent.

Had you been drinking? Because this whole thing sounds like a drunken argument that got totally out of hand, and you storming off in a huff at the end of the day was ridiculous. She apologised to you THREE times ffs.
If you were my sister, I'd be glad now, that you've pissed off home and I wouldn't be in any hurry to see you and your family again.

YABU.
I’d be pissed off if I were your sister.
An 11 year old child in the toilet with his mother is not a women’s rights issue.

You were awful and out of line. It's her choice how she parents. You decided to judge her parenting in front of her children and she reacted badly. Every single person I've ever known who describes themselves as being able to disagree "robustly" is a twat. It's like when people describe their kids as "lively". It's never good.

I've had some epic shouting matches with some members of my family. I think sometimes you need to stand your ground. It's deciding if it's worth falling out over or if you can let it drop.

A few years ago I was told off by my mother for not shutting up and keeping an argument going. I felt very strongly about the issue and felt it was more damaging to keep quiet. Even though I was later completely exonerated and shown to be completely in the right - my mother still believes me to have been in the wrong. It's become all about me causing a scene and not the other families bad behaviour.

She originally argued I was just causing trouble and knew nothing about what the situation was about, she then believed an altered version of events where the other family member absolved himself of all responsibility. After these lies were revealed, finally she now believes I should have had a quiet word - some unspecified other time.

Difficult people need careful handling.

Was this really worth all that drama and upset. You parent your children your way and by the same token she parents in a different way. If I felt the mens toilet was unsafe I would not want my son going in there either regardless of whether I thought he was old enough. He was hardly peeping under the cubicles! You have made yourself look a bit of a prat in an attempt to look right on. I would be mortified if I was you.

I am getting fed up to the back fucking teeth of girls being expected to just shut up and shove over because male spaces are unsafe for males
🙄

Nobody is being asked to shut up and shove over. It’s an 11 year old boy using a toilet cubicle. No need to be so bloody precious about it. He wasn’t trampling over a line of girls to get there of waving his bits about and peeing in the sink.

FWIW just asked 9 year old DD if it would bother her. She’s definitely a girl who doesn’t stand for any girl v boy nonsense and she couldn’t see why it would be a problem.

OP both of you sound ridiculous. Maybe let your sister raise her kids as she sees fit, eh? None of your business.

“you told your sis that an 11 year old boy shouldn't be in the women's loo and her own DD's statement backed that up.

Fucking well done OP for standing up for women and girls' spaces. Brava! You're a great aunt to that little girl and I'm sure she appreciates you”

Totally agree.

so just because your DD doesn't mind then every other girl has to not mind?

Thought we were all supposed to getting used to unisex loos anyway!

OP for all you know he could have been going to the men's on his own before but had a bad experience or felt threatened. YABU. I hate it when people can't help but pick arguments. You sound like you don't like your DSis very much and what with the comments about the train I suspect she may have just had enough of negativity.

I agree with everything you have said Rivertam.

Is this a reverse??

You were so completely out of order that it must be.

You and your mother bitching about your sister is a dick move.

What does a cushion have to do with anything?!

lots of girls don't like mixed sex toilets
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3509480-Mixed-sex-toilets

but hey, if it's better for a boy then they'd better all just suck it up, right?

thanks, michael.

Rivertam what do you, or any of these hypothetical families or children who object, think would happen to them in a ladies loo as a result of a an accompanied boy child being there?

Do you have an age cut off, or are all accompanied male children banned from women's loos?

I don’t understand. Some posters on here hate men and believe all men are bad and expect the 11 year old boy to keep out of the female spaces but they expect them to go alone into the male toilets with all the ‘bad men’. I don’t see the harm tbh esp since his mum was there and he is a CHILD!! I’m sure mum would stop him if he was doing anything inappropriate. But I doubt he would cos NOT ALL MALES ARE BAD!!!

"he should learn to respect female space"

He's a CHILD. If he should be going into the men's toilet alone it's because he needs to cut the apron strings and be allowed to piss standing up, not to satisfy your political views about gender.

You might have had a point if you had gently pointed out it might be a bit humiliating for HIM to be treated as if he cannot use a toilet unsupervised at 11.

Mumsnet and crazy feminists go together like coffee and cream judging by the support the OP is getting. My mother was very much a feminist of the 2nd wave and a fantastic Mum, but I pity a boy being raised by the modern equivalent. If you genuinely believe that whether a male child gets to piss in private should not be about his own development and safety, but a trumped up entitled paranoia about yours, then YABU... big time.

Grown men around a lone boy= fine
Boy with mum around females= bad
MN logic!

For Fuxsake. I'm all for teaching boys respect for women and their 'spaces' but this was a men's loo in a bloody pub and I sure as shit wouldn't be letting my kid use it on his own.

Total drama llama.