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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To have left

117 replies

Whatisthisfuckery · 19/02/2019 14:17

On Sunday my sister invited me and DS 11 up to spend a couple of days with her and her two DC. I thought me and DS could do with a change of scenery so we went yesterday morning. Train tickets cost £70 and the journey was crap, standing all the way.

Anyway we went for a meal at a local pub Before we left we popped to the toilet. My sis called her DS, also 11, into the womens’ toilets. I said to her that I didn’t think it was right that an 11 yo boy should be in the womens’ toilets. Her DS is tiny and he’s no bother but we were in a busy family pub and the toilets had people in and out all the time. She said she didn’t want her DS in the mens’ by himself because it’s not safe. I told her I still disagreed and that he’s too old and he should learn to respect female space.

When we got out her DD 9 said ‘if I saw a boy coming out of the womens’ I’d think it was weird.’ I said to my sis that she’d just heard it out of the mouth of her own DD. Sis went nuts at this. All the walk home she was shouting at me. I still wouldn’t agree with her that it’s fine to allow her 11 yo boy in the womens’ toilets so it went from I don’t agree with you because of x y and z, to ‘you just can’t accept anyone else having an opinion can you.’ I pointed out that I can, I just don’t agree. Then she went batshit, shouting right up in my face, throwing accusations and waving her arms and stamping her feet. She really lost it.

By this time my DS was like wtf? Can we leave, this is crazy. I told him to grab his kit and we went outside to get a taxi.

Sis then comes out twice to try and get us to go back in and stay and I said ‘no, I’m not putting up with that behaviour.’ Then the third time she came out and said sorry she’d lost it and could we please just stay, it was 9:30pm by then. I was about to talk to her and reconsider when she shouted,’’my two kids are in there breaking their hearts because of the way you were shouting,’ so I said ‘no, you’re still blaming me for your behaviour so no, I’m not having that.’

When she went in and we were waiting for the taxi DS said that the last time she’d come out she’d bought her DD out holding a heart shaped love cushion thing. I’ve got bad eyes so I didn’t even see.

So what I want to know is was I being unreasonable? I was so bloody angry that she couldn’t have a disagreement without having a massive toddler tantrum, but more over, that she’d shown her DD that her feelings didn’t matter and gone on to kick off in such a way that completely undermined her DD. Then she’d bought her DD out to use her as emotional blackmail to get us to stay. IMO she behaved terribly but am I over reacting.

OP posts:

PBo83 · 20/02/2019 07:58

*He's a CHILD. If he should be going into the men's toilet alone it's because he needs to cut the apron strings and be allowed to piss standing up, not to satisfy your political views about gender.

You might have had a point if you had gently pointed out it might be a bit humiliating for HIM to be treated as if he cannot use a toilet unsupervised at 11.*

Spot on. Maybe at 11 he should be able to goto the gents unsupervised but only, like you say, to 'cut the apron strings' and encourage independence.

ThreeAnkleBiters · 20/02/2019 08:02

Like PP you both created an unpleasant dramticscene for all your kids to witness because you couldn't just let it go. You were probably slightly worse by stating in in the first place but she was ridiculous too.

Weebitawks · 20/02/2019 08:05

From your op, it sounds like you wouldn't let it drop. You kept finding ways to bring it up. I don't agree with the way she reacted but maybe it's not the first thing you were going on and on about. Everyone's got a breaking point.

ThreeAnkleBiters · 20/02/2019 08:05

I also doubt any young girl or woman is going to be bothered by an 11 year old boy with his mum in the toilet. People just get too involved with gender politics so make an issue out if it. No one is getting changed in the pub toilet, I assume there are cubicles, you were making an issue for no reason.

JenniferJareau · 20/02/2019 08:07

You are as bad as each other from what you have said here.

slcol · 20/02/2019 08:11

You were the unreasonable one here, totally.

Poloshot · 20/02/2019 08:13

Both sound like morons

Lweji · 20/02/2019 08:15

Two different things here.

One is should the boy have gone in the men's toilet?
Generally yes, but this mother presumably knows the pub. And quite frankly, an 11 year old is not a man, and I can't see why girls the same age would be so upset unless they were conditioned to fear boys.

The other is the sister argument. OP, it wasn't a brilliant move to criticise your sister in this situation. Maybe point out later on or just mention it once.
You say she must be right and doesn't let go, but you were the one standing your ground as well and involving your niece in the argument FFS. Then you wouldn't accept her apologies either. She was upset at being questioned as a mother and in front of her children, possibly more people. Put yourself in her position.
No matter your update, it looks like you're both at fault at best.
At worst you really need to shut up sometimes and accept people's apologies.
You claim to be able to have robust arguments and then let go, but it doesn't look like it from your description of the argument at all.

Great example you've all given the children.

Just go, apologise for your side or the argument, and make peace with your sister.

saoirse31 · 20/02/2019 08:17

You are absolutely unreasonable op, rude and unpleasant. Fine to say you think he's too old to your sister. Totally wrong to have said same to your sister in front of children also.

And this thing about your sisters dd feeling uncomfortable about boys in toilets, I read what she said as a possible dig against her brother tbh. She said if she saw a boy coming out of ladies toilets she'd think it was weird. Not that it made her uncomfortable. My reading of her comment was that the weirdness described the boy.

Ignoring the drip feed later, where does your post show your sister undermining your nieces feelings etc?

And your conversations with your dm agreeing with you? I'd say a lot of people 'agree' with you op, as the only sure fire way to get you to shut up. But maybe I'm wrong, and you're capable of being reasonable, not embarrassing children , etc....

ASnowballsChance · 20/02/2019 08:22

I've got a 10yo DS and quite frankly, he wouldn't want to go in the ladies loos! I usually send him into the men's and wait outside for him.

Fullofregrets33 · 20/02/2019 08:23

I wouldn't let my son go into male toilets alone in a pub, sorry

winsinbin · 20/02/2019 08:26

I agree with the majority of posters that you were both in the wrong. You shouldn’t have gone on about how wrong she was - you offered your opinion and once you knew she disagreed you should have let it lie. She overreacted by kicking off and you overreacted by huffing off. It sounds like a stereotypical drunken argument fulled by past resentments rather than the topic under discussion.

Quite apart from the two of you spoiling the visit for all the DC involved you have set a terrible example - do you really want them to think that the way to handle sibling disagreement is by shouting/ insisting on being right/ storming off in a huff?

RiverTam · 20/02/2019 08:43

so, lots of you basically won't allow your sons into the men's toilet in a pub - so instead of ensuring that they won't need to, by either avoiding pubs or ensuring they go to the loo before they get there - you're happy to have them in the women's loos, and never no mind any women or girl who'd rather they weren't there.

So yet again it's up to women and girls to provide the solution to the 100% MALE problem.

(Oh, and I really couldn't care less if I'm the only person saying this on this thread, I'm old enough, ugly enough and have been around long enough not to worry about going along with everyone else, so save your comments on that score.)

Lweji · 20/02/2019 08:51

RiverTam

You really need to calm down on this.

It's an 11 year old.
He'd go with his dad to the men's toilets. It's the mother who's not comfortable letting him go to the men's.
And I can't see that any woman or girl would be upset to see a boy there. Most would just think he was a mummy's boy. Not a predator.

PBo83 · 20/02/2019 08:53

so instead of ensuring that they won't need to, by either avoiding pubs or ensuring they go to the loo before they get there

Let's flip this on its head.

A girl is out with her dad and doesn't want to go into the ladies on her own (or dad is worried about leaving her unaccompanied). Dad takes girl to one of the cubicles in the gents and waits outside for her.

With the more 'open plan' nature of gents toilets there is possibly more grounds for objection than an 'all cubicle' affair. That said, I really can't see any/many blokes having a problem with it.

By your reckoning the girl shouldn't have been taken to the pub in case she needed the toilet whilst she was there?!

And yes, I have seen this happen and couldn't care less.

RiverTam · 20/02/2019 08:59

DD has been out and about with DH during half term - he goes to the gents, she goes to the ladies. Because she is 9 and it is not appropriate for him to take her into the gents anymore. She would either have to go to the ladies alone or not go at all and wait. And yes, if you think the toilets in a particular venue aren't appropriate for your child to go alone, you don't go there. There's no rule saying any child has to go to the pub, is there?

And no, I don't need to calm down on this, and you don't get to tell me to do so.

WhiteDust · 20/02/2019 09:11

“ I can robustly disagree with someone then just drop it and talk about something else but she cant”

Translation: She doesn't put up my shit and 'robustly' argues back.

Wishiwasincornwall · 20/02/2019 09:19

When we got out her DD 9 said ‘if I saw a boy coming out of the womens’ I’d think it was weird.’ I said to my sis that she’d just heard it out of the mouth of her own DD.

Then she’d bought her DD out to use her as emotional blackmail to get us to stay.

So basically, that 9 year old girl has been used as a weapon by both of you and is now probably confused, upset and blaming herself for this whole pathetic mess.

Well done both of you for bringing a 9 year old into your drama and then only seeing it from how you were affected.

ChakiraChakra · 20/02/2019 10:14

@rivertam

Even though I don't agree with you, I really admire and respect you for standing up passionately and robustly for a subject you feel strongly about.

RiverTam · 20/02/2019 10:44

Thank you, Chakira. It's really important to be able to name the problem ( male violence - 98% of sexual crime and 95% of violent crime is committed by men, and a third of child sexual abuse cases are peer-on-peer, predominantly boy-on-girl) and find a suitable solution that doesn't impact on the safety, dignity and privacy of women and girls.

It's a shame those experiencing this problem (what to do when out and about with a young male child who you don't want to go into the gents' alone because of concerns of male violence ) don't expend their energy into campaigning for more family/unisex facilities (to co-exist with, not replace, single sex spaces) instead of just dumping the problem on to women and girls, and thus in effect grooming girls into thinking it's always up to them to provide the solution to male behavioural issues, instead of getting the men to sort themselves out.

tootiredtofunction · 21/02/2019 07:52

@RiverTam - So OTT you've made everything on this thread about you and your blatant issues, why does a 9yr old girls feelings trump that of an 11yr old boys she would have felt uncomfortable and so he should be made to feel uncomfortable going into the Men's toilets instead. And your view doesn't take into account boys with SEN either are they also not allowed to be accompanied by a responsible female. As another poster said not all Males are evil.

NorthernBirdAtHeart · 21/02/2019 08:21

Wow. Well your nice day out descended into a shitfest didn’t it?
Whilst I agree with the sentiment. You were massively unreasonable to let this escalate into a screaming match in front of the children and to potentially damage your relationship with your sister and her DC’s.
I hope you have apologised for that.

As a mum of two girls, I totally agree with some of @RiverTam’s points. At our local family pub last weekend, our DD’s refused to use the ladies because two boys were hiding out in the cubicles spying over the tops of the stalls at women and girls going to the toilet. These were ‘small size’ year 7 boys. But I suppose that’s ok, hey MN?

PBo83 · 21/02/2019 08:31

because two boys were hiding out in the cubicles spying over the tops of the stalls at women and girls going to the toilet. These were ‘small size’ year 7 boys. But I suppose that’s ok, hey MN?

Errr...No, of course that's not alright, where were the parents? It is an entirely different scenario to one child being walked in by the parent, using a cubicle and leaving though isn't it?

MorningsEleven · 21/02/2019 09:15

I can robustly disagree with someone then just drop it and talk about something else but she cant

Evidently you can't

I said to DM that I think she gives her DS preferential treatment and she agreed with me

Lweji · 21/02/2019 12:18

Year 7 boys are what? 12-13?
What the fuck were they doing in women's toilets?
Totally different issue.

11 is still a grey area, particularly with mother in tow. Which is why some reactions here were OTT.

Personally, I'd have sent my 11 year old to the men's regardless, but can't find the strength to be upset if a mother decided to take her own 11 year old with her.

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