Mixed sex toilets

[Pumpkinsarepurple]

Wales Online have published an article about mixed sex toilets in Welsh schools, highlighting research from Lleisiau Merched Cymru that found that girls are missing school or refusing to drink all day so that don't have to use them.

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/pupils-missing-school-because-dont-15839558?fbclid=IwAR2uOXMN4LVJ6GaU7jO-yRYJ9D7_RQJvoV6TLnahB2eMdigAxtreVzke6eU

The comments section mentions that the doors can be opened from the outside making the girls even more vulnerable.

[Oxytocindeficient]

Oh my god.

[Rufusthebewilderedreindeer]

Most toilets can be opened from the outside

Its ludicrous

An absolutely dreadful idea, and it seems most of the children think so too

[Bowlofbabelfish]

Disgraceful. And illegal

The law says separate toilet AND washing areas for each sex.

[Jaxhog]

Terrible, terrible, terrible!! I imagine it only reduces bullying because girls aren't using them.

Yet another example of the increased sidelining of female sensibility. I would say 'women' but even that term has been usurped now.

[Dothehappydance]

The school my DD goes to has mixed sex toilets but nothing like these which I am less comfortable with.

I think washing facilities refer to showers etc not hand washing.

[NothingOnTellyAgain]

ah can't copy and paste

quote near the bottom says it all

childrens commissioner

says children of "all genders" need to be protected esp transgender

no mention of girls no attempt to address our particular needs / vulnerabilities / what we are subject to in a sexist world including at school from boys

[NothingOnTellyAgain]

Have wales schools stuff done away with sex as protected characteristic? I think there was something around that recently.

The fact that girls needs are not on the radar, not of interest, not of concern is an absolute flag that misogyny is alive and well in the UK. Girls must put up and shut up, and everyone else is more important than them. As if we don't get enough of that already.

[Oldstyle]

The law in Wales remains clear re single-sex provision from the age of 8 but there are suggestions that the legislation might be 'outdated' (pah!) and need revisiting. Meanwhile LAs are carrying on regardless.
To be fair, some of the better-designed mixed-sex spaces with wash basin area open to the corridor probably do lessen bullying but the issue of privacy, dignity and safety remains. And much of the mixed-sex provision isn't well-designed / specifically designed. It's essentially just a change to the sign on the door and the addition of more sanitary bins.
Either way, no-one has asked the girls. Lleisiau Merched Cymru (Women's Voice Wales) intend to continue their informal consultation until Easter. If you want to participate, email in confidence to [email protected].

[feministfairy]

Children are never consulted about this - just as women in the workplace are never consulted about the imposition of mixed sex toilets.

There is a relentless eradication of the facilities that people actually want and need and a totalitarian imposition of what certain (often highly dodgy) organisations and individuals want. Girls and women are mere collateral

[Kismetjayn]

Our school did this ages ago but not for trans rights, it was to stop kids loitering/going to loos when they should be in classes.

There was a swirly glass wall in front of the bathroom and cubicles. It was grim! Didn't think of it from a sexism perspective as everyone hated it. There was no proper door onto the corridor. It felt so exposed.

Tbf before the school remodel no one used the loos anyway and they were proper ones. It was 'embarrassing' to go to the toilet and even worse if people knew you were on your period. We had proper provisions (though they did honk) but we all avoided drinking through the day so we didn't need the loo.

[SirVixofVixHall]

My daughters are at a welsh school, the school apparently intends to shift to mixed sex toilets. Dd2 visited a different school recently that does have the mixed sex loos already, the loos are individual cubicles, with girls on one side, boys the other, all in one open space with communal sinks in the centre. Both dds have said they will not use the loos if theirs change to this.

[Kettleon80]

Why are all these Welsh schools bracing themselves for an onslaught of transgenderism?

[Latinista]

Mixed sex spaces become men’s spaces by default. Has anyone written a PhD or article on what happens to young males in adolescence to get them dominating physical space in the way that they do? It seems to be a consequence of realising their increasing physical power and exploiting that in groups.

I despair for young women and girls having to navigate this daily in their schools, and fear for the impact it will have on their future ability to compete in the workplace. (Of course segregated education would address this problem...)

My workplace has dedicated unisex single room toilets with sink and hand dryer inside, so you’re not sharing the facilities with anyone - like disabled toilet provision. People seem to like them on the whole. Probably expensive though.

[Needmoresleep]

Now in the Mail

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6714753/Unisex-toilets-schools-leaving-girl-pupils-afraid-use-loo.html

[SirVixofVixHall]

Teenage boys leave loos in a horrible state though, even with entirely closed cubicles with a basin, it is still grim for girls to have to share with boys.
I have two daughters and they both want loos that are separate from boys. When i was growing up this was a given, why this step backwards ? The school says it is to stop bullying, apparently. How can this be true ? I am baffled.

[userschmoozer]

On the Mail article someone commented 'do the staff have mixed toilets as well'?

[GGMummy3]

On the Mail article someone commented 'do the staff have mixed toilets as well'?

Good point!!

[silentcrow]

On the Mail article someone commented 'do the staff have mixed toilets as well'?

We do, actually! Enclosed cubicles, floor to ceiling with sinks. There's never any bother with them, but I think that may be particular to our school for reasons that would out me very quickly We are majority female, though, and not very tolerant of untidiness in general. Plus, small primary school where everyone knows everyone. A 2000-pupil school...I'm willing to bet you'd have more issues with that many staff.

[ShouldBeCookingDinner]

I don't think this would stop bullying at all and with girls missing school, it's clearly increasing it. Bullies will get the children somewhere else. Toilets used to be a refuge not a place to be bullied.

[Funkyfunkybeat12]

I am in favour of individual self-contained toilet cubicles but not unisex stalls. Re boys leaving toilets in an awful state- this is socialisation, not nature. We should not accept that this is a ‘natural’ part of being a boy any more than we should accept that girls are naturally more caring. Rather than being allowed to get away with disgusting behaviour, boys need to be taught and have it reinforced that you don’t leave toilets in a bad state. Presumably they don’t do this at home, where they will often have sisters and other family members that they share bathrooms with. In the long run, we should be able to share toilets (as in using the same toilet, not be in the room at the same time) rather than deeming that men/boys are too disgusting for women/girls to ever use the same facilities. That’s very regressive and will never break down gender stereotypes.

[butteryellow]

I think they mean they hope it will reduce the bullying they've experienced in the boys toilets... by sacrificing the girls to 'police' it - just like sitting children boy girl boy girl was used when I was a child.

I think they should deal with their bullying problem rather than try to get the children to deal with it for them.

I went to 3 different schools as a kid, my children have been to even more, and none of the schools has had a bullying problem (my son is one of those rules followers who would absolutely complain to me if anyone was even putting tissues on the floor of the bathroom) - they all have single sex toilets (well, except in very young infants, where there's a bathroom off the classroom quite often) - and sure, in my schools there was some loitering - but it was an ancient, stinky (boys the worst) outside toilet block which was freezing. And in secondary, teachers would just occasionally prowl the corridors and flush any skyvers out - but they were generally friendly schools, with zero tolerance for bullying so it was just skyvers, not people being beaten up!

[Funkyfunkybeat12]

ShouldBe very often bullying comes from members of the same sex. Certainly when I was at school, I was more likely to be picked on by the girls than the boys. Boys who were bullied were also more likely to be picked on by fellow boys, rather than girls. The toilets and changing rooms were actually a place of danger rather than a refuge, as there were no teachers watching and the bullies could say what they liked.

[butteryellow]

In the long run, we should be able to share toilets (as in using the same toilet, not be in the room at the same time) rather than deeming that men/boys are too disgusting for women/girls to ever use the same facilities. That’s very regressive and will never break down gender stereotypes.

The trouble is that there's what's ideal - where we want to be, and where we are now, and right now, for whatever reason, boys (and men) make a state of their toilets. Ideally, yes, men and boys would be able to not get pee everywhere, and we need a plan to get there, but I don't think having girls clean up after them so they can sit down is a plan - it's just letting the girls do the cleaning and that is regressive.

Personally I think that it's actually that we've socialised boys to stand up to wee, so it's physics, not nature . DP often sits, and DS1 sometimes does whereas DS2, despite being a bit short, is too enamoured with his penis to even think about sitting down. As a result, DS2 often leaves nasty surprises (which he is called to clean - but still, there's going to be some I miss) - whereas DP and DS1 are fairly pleasant to share a toilet with.

[arunadasi]

@funkyfunkybeat: you are partly right but I think your goal of reeducating boys is a bit unrealistic. The two ways in which sharing toilets with males is annoying or irritating to women and girls are:
-- they leave the toilet seat up
-- they leave urine splatter on the floor
We women have been trying for decades to reeducate men to put down the toilet seat after use. It hasn't worked. It's an inherent laziness; we all tend to be lazy, not just males, but this is one particularly male laziness! My own son, 33 years old, does put down the seat but my son-in-law doesn't. Are parents ready to train their sons from boyhood? Mothers maybe. Not fathers.

As for urine splatter: the only way to combat this is to train boys to sit on the toilet, like we do. Is this realistic? I think not. I lived for 43 years in Germany, a country where many mothers DO try to get their sons to sit. My former landlady successfully trained her son. But all in all: it's an exception, and men who sit to pee in Germany have become a laughing stock. The taunt is "Sitzpinkler". And they have won the right to stand in German court: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30937492

Men stand to pee, floors get splattered. It's not going to change.

[LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD]

I’m assuming that when girls have their periods they are dodging school.