Anyone leaving Labour party with Chuka and his mates?

[longwayoff]

I am seriously worried. Politics across the West is an utter mess - thanks Putin, nice work - and I can't see that this will help. It will split the left vote and right-wing ideology will continue stomping its way to more power. We are asterisked all ways from hell to breakfast.

I hope they succeed. There needs to be a credible centrist party and with the Fib Dems polling at under 10% & having a laughable 11 MP’s I think there could be a ground swell of support for them from the silent minority.
Labour & Conservative have become too divisive

Accusing Labour voter or members of not being socialist because they don’t support Corbyn is facile and tribalism if the worst sort.

Labour should be a broad church. I totally agree with the resigning MPs on that. ‘Us vs Them’ is weak identity politics and entirely divisive.

Who can blame Luciana Berger?

The only aim of labour atm seems to be keeping the Tories out and we should all ignore everything else and all our misgivings to that aim.

Feels like a choice between a Sick Milkshake or a Shit Sandwich.

I am a floating voter who for years not felt able to bring myself to vote labour. I am more than willing to give a new more centrist party a chance but I don’t think they stand a chance.
The Labour Party as it stands I could never give my vote to. The liberals are a no too so that just leaves the Tory party. Not much of a choice in modern politics today is there.

From the awesome Douglas Adams

“It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..."
"You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?"
"No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like so straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said Ford. "It is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?"
"What?"
"I said," said Ford, with an increasing air of urgency creeping into his voice, "have you got any gin?"
"I'll look. Tell me about the lizards."
Ford shrugged again.
"Some people say that the lizards are the best thing that ever happenned to them," he said. "They're completely wrong of course, completely and utterly wrong, but someone's got to say it."
"But that's terrible," said Arthur.
"Listen, bud," said Ford, "if I had one Altairian dollar for every time I heard one bit of the Universe look at another bit of the Universe and say 'That's terrible' I wouldn't be sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.”

PR is the answer to the 'but the wrong lizard may get in' problem.

Bowchic Read back over your last three or four posts and ask why you are so happy to blame the electorate for being wrong, rather than accept a Corbyn led party is not resonating with them.

Politicians are elected to represent the people, not tell the people they are wrong, the Labour Party needs to represent the people who vote for it, not expect voters to change to match what Momentum / Corbyn et all want. Until you, and so many others, get that the Labour Party will remain in opposition.

JustanothersodI don’t need to read over my posts. I know the electorate have reservations about Corbyn. I think they underestimate and misjudge him.

I live in the NE and canvass for the Green Party occasionally. You would not believe how many people vote labour even though their expressed political views are in no sense whatsoever aligned with labour party policy.

It is in the end ridiculous to imagine that the whole spectrum of public opinion on multiple axes of political debate can be represented by 2 parties.

It is no surprise whatsoever that on any given issue both of the 2 parties end up split.

It is also no surprise that the only issue that actually unites each party is the issue of which party should be in power.

The system is totally fucked.

PR would be much better.

It's his job to win votes, not our job to strive to understand him.

Presumably you are not advocating for MPs to always stay with a party, even if they no longer agree with its policies?

The Labour party is a broad church and always has been imo. I actually stopped renewing my membership in 1992, when the party was so weak in its opposition to the poll tax (although that was the last in a long line of disappointments), but had stuck by it through thick and thin for 22 years by that point.

It's a tricky one really. My instincts are that you stick to your guns, stay in and fight for what you believe in, which is probably easier in the Labour party than the Tories, because of the way policy is decided. But everyone has a point where they say "Fuck this for a game of soldiers".

I also think other factors come into it. If I had still been living in a very winnable London constituency, I probably never would have left, but there's precious little point in being a Labour party member in a rural Tory/LD marginal constituency.

It's different for MPs though. Their constituents voted for a Labour MP, now they haven't got one. I think the 7 should do the decent thing, resign their seats, and stand in a by-election, let the people choose. It's what Dick Taverne did in the early 70s when he didn't like the way things were going in the Labour party and imo is the honourable way to behave.

Windows It’s an interesting theory but I would rather look to the Manchester Guardian’s description of Labour as ‘the birth of a socialist party’ to be honest.

lakie but what are people supposed to do when the leadership won't follow through on agreed policy at conference?

Where is the people's vote?

In the face of it I liked what the seven had to say. As I've got no one I could currently course for it's pleasing to have the whisper of a chance of an alternative I suppose.
I hate the 'they haven't got a chance' attitude. It's become a self fulfilling prophesy.

That said within two minutes of that press conference I found myself thinking ' what's in it for Chuka'? Because sadly I don't believe that any of our politicians are not in some way self serving anymore. I have become very cynical in my early middle age and that's a result of the antics of politicians over the last 30 years.

Bowchica

What do you think needs to happen for the electorate not to 'underestimate and misjudge' Corbyn?

The Labour Party can only change the views of the electorate through effective debate, and it can't change the media, for example, while it's in opposition - the only thing it can change is something about itself.

Aye, always the electorates fault eh? Why hasn't Corbyn been able to demonstrate everyone is wrong about him, why hasn't he been able to lead a broad church of a labour group of MP's?

A strong Labour Party leader could have achieved both of those things, particularly in the fact of one of the weakest governments and Prime Ministers this country has ever seen - he hasn't and has to accept responsibility for that.

Every other Labour Leader has faced bad press, dissension in the ranks, nothing he has faced is exceptional, yet it's all everyone elses fault isn't it, and the people who need the Labour Party are the ones that are let down.

Good on them! JC and the appalling tactics of Momentum, JC's anti-semitism, misogyny, lack of leadership, lack of direction (straight talking, honest politics my arse, his approach to Brexit has put lie to that), and, frankly, lack of intelligence, has meant I will never vote for Labour under him, and not even when he goes unless the party changes substantially. I think he would be a disaster for the country. I'd rather have shambollic Tories than that him.

But even more, I'd rather have a party I can support - so looking at interest to see what happens.

Agree with others that need a PR system though.

I'm genuinely curious when you turned 18/first voted, were any of you pre Blair?

Graphista I am so very ancient that when I first voted Labour the leader was Harold Wilson. (Feb 1974, even I'm not old enough to have been voting in the 60s, when majority was still 21).

An interesting theory supported by Keir Hardie and Tony Benn rather than a newspaper - no matter how venerable the Manchester Guardian was.

The point being socialists do not own the Labour Party, there is no shame to be a social democrat or a trade unionist with the LP.

When the social democrats are in charge there is room for dissent it is only when the socialists are in control that people are deselected and bullied out of parliament.

Quite M3lon, a point I made earlier. The leadership doesn't represent or listen to its own members, not just many of its MPs, so why should we as voters think they will actually listen to the electorate? That's before you even consider Corbyn's voting record as a member of his own party, the anti-semitism, other issues surrounding Corbyn and McDonnell. Why can't fervent Labour supporters grasp this pretty simple fact.

"You might not like us, you might not trust us, but come on, we can't be as bad as the Tories" is not an effective vote winning campaign but seems to be the basic thrust. Now is not the time for infighting, let's focus on getting the Tories out THEN we'll put our house in order. Oh fuck off.

Better late than never from Labour moderates. I hope this gives confidence to other Labour MPs who equally despise the lack of action on anti-semitism and the cowardly lack of a clear position on Brexit to act accordingly.

Justanothersod Absolutely the electorate’s fault when they consistently vote in the Tories!

@Bow Shows you just how bad Labour must be then, for so many votes to think they'd rather than Tories than you lot at present

I'm staying with Labour.

You don't oppose your enemy by becoming more like them, Shatners.