Anyone leaving Labour party with Chuka and his mates?

[longwayoff]

I am seriously worried. Politics across the West is an utter mess - thanks Putin, nice work - and I can't see that this will help. It will split the left vote and right-wing ideology will continue stomping its way to more power. We are asterisked all ways from hell to breakfast.

@SheWoreBlueVelvet But a government can’t actually decide one democratic vote can be ignored and another like a Scottish Independence or the GE should stand can they?

Yes, they can, depending on the legislation surrounding the vote.

You say it was an” advisory” referendum but I definitely didn’t see that mentioned on the ballot paper

I say that because that is factually correct and matter of LAW. The result was not binding on any Government to carry it out. The European Union Referendum Act of 2015, which was created to enable the referendum merely provided FOR a vote; there was nothing in the legislation that said it had to be implemented. Oddly enough, the legislation surrounding the Alternative Vote referendum in 2011 was worded so that the result DID have to be implemented. But that wasn't mentioned on the ballot paper either. Ballot papers never do list the "terms and conditions".

What IS a fact is that the leaflet put out by the Government said they would implement the decision. But that leaflet is not legally binding, there is no legislation around it, so they don't have to implement it at all. In fact, the High Court said that that "promise" was false as it could not actually be implemented without the approval of Parliament as a whole. The High Court stated that the referendum was not legally binding guided by the “basic constitutional principles of parliamentary sovereignty and representative parliamentary democracy”.

And the leaflet is obviously nonsense because how often do Governments not follow through on what is printed in their manifesto leaflets during general elections (answer: more times than less).

Even Nigel Farage admitted the referendum was advisory and not legally binding in an interview on the Andrew Marr show.

I could go on at length but I suspect you would have stopped reading. Our politicians are not above the law and procedures of Parliament. The problem is that a lot of the public and people on this thread don't understand how it works.

Full misogyny unleashed. Anna Soubry on lbc. Full on Angry White Males with an occasional supportive woman. She's just asked innocently "Is Brexit to blame for this?"

I think part of the current state of politics in this country is because of the changing nature of political parties. Even 30 or 40 years ago, political parties were very firmly embedded in the community, with Labour Clubs and Conservatives clubs being a meeting place and social part of the community and, as a result, local membership was more representative of the local community.

As that link has faltered, the membership of political parties has moved away from representing the community, fallen dramatically and become more about attracting only those who are interested in politics as the result rather than as the means to the end if that makes sense.

Consequently, both major parties are moving more and more to the extremes and are more driven by dogma and ideology than in wanting to serve the community. You see that in political activists who appear more concerned with maintaining the 'purity' of thought and belief rather than in building consensus or making compromise to deliver to the public.

Yes - I'd agree with this. I can only speak for Labour, but ward meetings rarely covered local issues. It was all about ideology. I think grass-roots Momentum have tried to be more active within the community. Unfortunately, those running Momentum, at every level, are old-school purists who know the rule book back to front and have years of experience in factionalising and taking control.

I hope TIG will support PR and remain.

If they do then I'll happily join up!