Anyone leaving Labour party with Chuka and his mates?

[longwayoff]

I am seriously worried. Politics across the West is an utter mess - thanks Putin, nice work - and I can't see that this will help. It will split the left vote and right-wing ideology will continue stomping its way to more power. We are asterisked all ways from hell to breakfast.

Was chatting to an old Labour bloke recently who knew JC from way back. He said he was vehemently anti-Europe because of the Bilderberg angle - a secret meeting group of the "elite" of Europe

People who talk about secret elites controlling stuff behind the scenes are usually meaning ‘it’s the Jews’ so probably best to be wary of people spouting that sort of stuff.

Yes I know Bilderberg exist.

FPTP is why we never had BNP or UKIP MPs. Careful what you wish for.

Hatton rejoining tells you all you need to know about "the broad church " that is the Labour Party. I'm old. I've seen what tossers like Hatton do to the Labour Party.
Let's hope that is just a DM scare story and not actually true.

Bilderberg must be the most well known 'secret' organization in history.

@noblegiraffe

Yep. The old ‘secret groups control the world’ trope is in fact the kind of tripe trotted out by those not brave enough to openly state their anti-Semitic views. How hilarious that JC is seen as so progressive and caring.

I would like Yvette Cooper or Keir Starmer as leader.

As most people ive been in a political wasteland for a few years. I see this as a good step like a phoenix rising from the ashes. It be interesting to watch but sadly unless they get funding from somewhere it wont go far. Be very pleased if some moderate tories joined too. We need a middle party and libs are a waste of space now. Interesting times. Wonder what politic students will write about this is years to come.

I’d rather have had contingents of UKIP and Communist MPs in Parliament, where their policies and arguments could be properly expressed and debated (and in the case of UKIP, themselves generally exposed as incompetent and useless, as they’ve generally shown in local government), than hiding away on the far right and left of the two main parties and holding them to ransom.
FPTP got us in this fix, and probably won’t get us out of it unless many, many centre ground MPs jump ship, from both sides.

UKIP and other more extreme parties would gain seats and if that is what people vote for then so be it.

When exposed to public scrutiny extreme groups do not often do well. UKIP is a case in point they do well for a few years and then implode. Extremists can only keep a lid on their real views and personalities for so long.

The glare of publicity and the scrutiny of Parliament would mean they would remain in relatively small numbers.

Also one of the cries of Brexit is that people can not hear their voice represented in public. Even if you and I don't like the voice it was some people think and so we would do well to listen. Not necessarily act on what we hear but be aware, respond to it and engage in debate.

Political Science is mostly a closed book to me, but I notice that the idea of political parties organised on a business franchise model has been floated more than once. Could that work for an Independent Group?
www.ubcpress.ca/asset/9559/1/9780774829557.pdf
www.domovod.info/entry.php?58-Using-the-Business-Franchise-Model-for-a-Political-Party-Structure

"Extremists can only keep a lid on their real views and personalities for so long."

Exactly what's happening to Corbyn and bigoted party.

And the ERG.

Both parties suffer from extremes.

FPTP is why we never had BNP or UKIP MPs. Careful what you wish for

UKIP and other more extreme parties would gain seats and if that is what people vote for then so be it

The so-called rise of UKIP and the idea that they could seriously play an important part at Westminster was laughable. Obviously in the current FPTP system they never made any inroads as only in one general election did they secure a vote larger than the Lib Dems but so spread around that it resulted in just one seat in the 2015 election which they immediately lost in 2017. They only had two seats in 2010-2015 and that was because two Tories defected to UKIP. Even the Green Party had a bigger share of the vote than UKIP in all general elections bar 2015!

If so many people wanted to leave the EU all these years to result in the referendum, why did UKIP never have any success in general elections? Even allowing for FPTP their own leader failed 7 times to become an MP! Had we had proper PR, everyone would feel their voice was being heard to some extent in Westminster.

For reference:

UKIP vote share
2001 1.48%
2005 2.2%
2010 3.1%
2015 12.6%
2017 1.84%

Lib Dem
2001 18.3%
2005 22%
2010 23%
2015 7.9%
2017 7.4%

Watching News night last night, one of the 7 said the group is being funded via crowd funding and people could donate on their website, [[//www.theindependent.group]] . I went to their website and their click to donate page appeared to crash for several hours. My DH and I were speculatung that this was because so many people wanted to give them money.

ShatnersWig the trouble with extrapolating from FPTP results is that people are often voting tactically.

However, your point holds UKIP was never going to gain power and were not as popular as people like to think.

@Windows Oh indeed. If you delve into more depth, you can see that in some constituencies, UKIP was gaining 30% of the vote in that one constituency but then in others they were losing deposits, so the overall percentages can give a skewed impression.

However, your point holds UKIP was never going to gain power and were not as popular as people like to think.

They weren't but as you say you cannot extrapolate from FPTP figures, they were popular enough that it gave both Labour and Cons a wobble.

They weren't as insignificant as some people like to think as well.

UKIP only got as big as they did because they had the backing of the BBC and other media in terms of disproportionate air time and promotion in a grab for viewing figures. It's possible the BBC etc only dared do so because of FPTP knowing they were unlikely to gain real seats.

Can anyone link to their bloody website!?

Still cant find it!

www.theindependent.group/

Sorry, I'm last to this. I haven't read the thread.

I'm happy about it. Someone needed to do something. I couldn't even vote for Labour in the last election, I had to vote for the Lib Dems because of Brexit. I have no idea what the Labour Party are for anymore. I've always liked Chuka.

I do have to say their website is lovely and easy to navigate

However, your point holds UKIP was never going to gain power and were not as popular as people like to think

This is absolutely true, and yet...UKIP have wielded more influence than pretty much any other party in the last 15 years.

Pressure from UKIP on the labour vote caused the Blair and Brown goverrnments to get much tougher on immigration (honestly, look back at pre-97 and most of the immigration 'debate' is about how rubbish the system was at processing asylum applications and how this was deeply unfair on asylum seekers)

Pressure from UKIP on the Tory vote caused Cameron to hold the EU referendum. It was his attempt to stop more Tory MPs defecting after Carswell and Reckless, and to hold onto anti-EU votes and membership

You don't have to form governments to wield massive influence. In this case, it's a fucking disgrace and a tragedy for the country how malignant an influence they have been - most of all, for the poorest.

KoraBora, yes, I’m genuine. I’ve now found the link from puzzledandpissedoff which has the level of detail I’ve been looking for.

My grandfather was Jewish, by the way.

i do find it amusing, according to the asset stripping stuff on the thread we have to vote labour to save us from brexit consequences - vote for Corbyn and his sidekicks, the group that have utterly failed to provide anti-brexit leadership in the teeth of much exhortation to do so. And now we should trust this labour group to save us from the consequences when they failed to stop it?

Forgive me if I don't feel hopeful! It isn't just Corbyn I don't like, I can't think of a single shadow cabinet member I've any respect for.

as for who donates to the independent group - I've no idea who donates to the tories/labour/lib dems, why would I hold the independent group to a higher account? I'm hopeful more will join them and they start running candidates with an anti-brexit manifesto and people backing the people's vote fund them to do so.

We need a return to centrist politics - not Corbyn new