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AIBU?

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Anyone leaving Labour party with Chuka and his mates?

830 replies

longwayoff · 18/02/2019 08:58

I am seriously worried. Politics across the West is an utter mess - thanks Putin, nice work - and I can't see that this will help. It will split the left vote and right-wing ideology will continue stomping its way to more power. We are asterisked all ways from hell to breakfast.

OP posts:
DonaldTwain · 18/02/2019 18:46

Hi Kim, if MN really can’t differentiate between racism and expressions of disgust at racism, perhaps you should take the thread down.

Windowsareforcheaters · 18/02/2019 18:46

SilverySurfer I'll explain but don't accuse me of being patronising if you ask the questions.

how do you explain the three line whip, which is an instruction to attend and vote according to a party's policy and which, if ignored, could result in the whip being withdrawn?

The whip is indeed withdrawn but the party can not withdraw the seat.

MPs as individuals choose to align themselves with a party. The party tells them how it wants them to vote and then the MP makes his or her own mind up. If an MP consistently fails to follow the whip or behaves in a way the party does not like they withdraw the whip but the MP retains their seat.

The party can not force an MP to seek re-election it can only make them leave the party. It is the individual who controls the seat NOT the party.

BishopBrennansArse · 18/02/2019 18:47

Irma no I don't.
Unfortunately I think Momentum was born of frustrations of those who saw the then new Labour Party as letting them down. They wanted their MPs to vote for left wing not right wing policy.

I don't think Momentum is a good thing, no.
I don't think things will change the second JC walks into number 10, that won't happen anyway.
But something needs to happen, someone needs to do something. These posturing 7 won't.

Justanotherlurker · 18/02/2019 18:48

Ed Milliband was apparently unelectable too so for those whinging about Corbyn you reap what you sow.

Ah the old 'turkeys voting for Christmas' trope, almost on par with 'fooled by right wing propoganda' for those that struggling for a cohesive argument and resorts to ad-homiens instead

PostmanPatIsIncompetent · 18/02/2019 18:48

cardibach This no worse with regard to antisemitism isn't true though, is it. Unless I missed the events of two Jewish Tory MPs having no confidence motions proposed in them, a Jewish Tory MP being accused of being in league with the media at the launch of a party report into anti-semitism, Theresa May liking a Facebook post involving anti-Semitic imagery, or a prominent Tory activist being recorded venting an anti-Semitic rant and nonetheless sitting, today, on the national executive committee of the Tory party. Because all of those things and shedloads more have happened with Labour.

There's no excuse to be arguing this. The problems in Labour are extensively documented.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 18/02/2019 18:49

Snore and yawn at "media machine". How many people read newspapers today? It is social media that has the influence today and yet still old 'uns go on about "the Murdoch press" as if it were the 80s.

Online? Millions. Did the social media influence on Brexit pass you by? I said Murdoch influenced historically. The same media tactics still applies just now it incorporates modern tech.

JustAnotherSod · 18/02/2019 18:49

Bishop, I absolutely agree that the way the current Government treat disabled people, immigrants, young people, the homeless and so many more is intolerable.

However, I disagree that the answer is simply expecting the electorate to agree with Corbyn. Politics is the process of winning support from people by, not just saying you do, but actually making them believe that you care about them, that you can make a difference to them, and that you can lead the country.

Frankly, some people could have the best policies, the best ideas and the best solutions but don't have an ability to engage with people and 'sell' themselves as the solution and will never, ever attract enough support to actually get into power and enact all of those great solutions.

That's what I find so frustrating about the current opposition, there seems a complete unwillingness to address why the public seem not to see Corbyn as a capable or competent leader or why so many Labour MP's, who in many cases have worked alongside him for years, believe likewise. Instead, the hackles seem to go up, 'loyalty' is questioned and insults snideness wins the day. That only serves to push more support away and make the likelihood of a Labour government even more remote.

At the same time, the positions which served him well for many years as the Party rebel, including some of the links he has with others and the links they have, seem to have led to a 'blindness' to racism which has both shocked and horrified me. I don't believe that Corbyn himself is racist, I do however believe that he hasn't been able to effectively move to leading a Party of many and varied people, some of who are racist. That in itself to me proves his utter incompetence in leadership.

So many claim to have been politically homeless in the Blair years, and dismiss Blair and Blairites as 'Tories', however, regardless of what you think of some of his actions as Prime Minister, his time in power saw a massive investment in public services, decreases in poverty levels, a reduction in homelessness, improvements in support for disabled people and families and I could go on. Did they get everything right, no, but I strongly believe no one person or even no one party can have all of the answers to the myriad of challenges facing society.

What I do know, is that a Opposition Leader with effective leadership skills would be running rings around our current Government. A Labour Leader with effective leadership skills would be engaging all streams of the parties membership and support in delivering a 'broad church' which would inspire voters of many differing opinions to support Labour. Why is that not happening, at some point the Leader will have to look at himself in that question and stop blaming everyone and everything else. Until that happens, those of us who want and need a Labour Government, and the structures of society we hold deal remain in peril.

derikthesheep · 18/02/2019 18:50

**
Rooting out anti-semitism in an organisation of 500,000 people is a huge job, and it's important that it is done in a way which doesn't shut down legitimate criticism of Israel's treament of Palestine.
Rooting out anti-semitism in an organisation of 500,000 people is a huge job, and it's important that it is done in a way which doesn't shut down legitimate criticism of Israel's treament of Palestine. **
**
I think the anti-semitism is over-hyped and no worse than other party (ie bad, but not a reason to vote against Labour). **

Conflating Israel and Jews - pure antisemitism. I'm born and bred English, as are my parents and some of my grandparents. So because of Israel - where I don't live, or have any influence or voting rights (due to being an English citizen) I just have to accept anti semitism in the Labour Party because its too hard to sort it all out???

And to the second comment - JCs actions and who he associates with speak for themselves. I've experienced 'casual' and not so casual anti semitism all my life. Spat at by schoolkids hanging out of a schoolbus and throwing milk bottles at us while their driver looked on. Walking home from synagogue and people yelling nasty comments at us, and once throwing eggs at my dad, hissed insults as I've walk past. I'm notd alone in my experience in my community by a long shot. Combine that with a very long history of persecution around the world purely for being Jewish and you can see how a rise in anti semitism In a mainstream party would be something the Jewish community is alert to. The men I know don't walk around aware of a risk of being raped but the women do and take precautions - the women know they are at risk so they are attuned to it. People are attuned to the risks that apply to themselves. When people comment that oh I don't see anti semitism so it never happens or is over stated its like men saying well I don't go around sexually harrasing women and I don't see it so all the women saying "me too" are just jumping on the band wagon or in your words "it's over hyped"

FunkyKingston · 18/02/2019 18:51

Yet people won't hear it. They refuse to learn from history

You're not making an argument from hiatoey, you are making direct parallels where they don't exist.

GallicosCats · 18/02/2019 18:51

Hmmm, I'm reminded of the 1980s rather than the 1930s here - anyone remember the Gang of Four?

GhostofFrankGrimes · 18/02/2019 18:51

Ah the old 'turkeys voting for Christmas' trope, almost on par with 'fooled by right wing propoganda' for those that struggling for a cohesive argument and resorts to ad-homiens instead

Media tycoons like Murdoch didn't buy papers because they like crosswords. You can deny reality and history as much as you like.

67chevvyimpala · 18/02/2019 18:51

Brexit isn't ideology.

Its become a religion.

And those of us who dont believe enough are damned.

BishopBrennansArse · 18/02/2019 18:52

I agree with the increases in investment under Blair.
It's been the new labour MPs voting with the coalition since 2010 I have had a very, very big problem with.

I just hate personality politics. Despise it.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 18/02/2019 18:53

The appallingly dog whistles of Brexit certainly have parallels with the 1930's.

BishopBrennansArse · 18/02/2019 18:54

For me it's everything slowly inching further and further right.
It's problems that are caused by the government being blamed on the EU, immigrants, people on benefits.... things inch further right.
Then the fragmentation of the Left meaning we lurch ever further right.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 18/02/2019 18:59

I agree *bishop". Tory voters will largely stay loyal to the Tories. UKIP or similar party will still have a presence stifled by FPTP. Nationalist parties will grow stronger due to Brexit.

That leaves all other voters split between Lab/Gang of 7/Green/Lib Dem.

greybluegeometry · 18/02/2019 18:59

Gosh, all these apologists for Corbyn's Labour, trying to minimise the anti-semitism issues or deflect attention away from them, are unwittingly but powerfully making the point of just how bad the anti-semitism problem is within Labour, and why it ain't going away anytime soon...

Shame on you all. People like you have driven life long Labour supporters like me away from the party.

JustAnotherSod · 18/02/2019 19:00

Bishop What votes particularly since 2010 do you have problems with? I see many, many people complaining about Blairites voting with the Tories, but when pushed for examples, they seem to give examples of votes where the party is abstaining for reasons of parliamentary process, to push amendments or force a vote on substantive issues for example, rather than Blairites siding with the Tories on substantive issues.

The way I see it, politics and politicians have to deal with reality, that means working across political ideologies to achieve your desired outcome. I would much rather a Labour government representing the broad church of the labour movement than continued Conservative government with a weak and ineffective opposition. If that means accepting that parliamentary process means occasions votes won't show exactly what I want then, to me, that is a price worth paying.

What is it about 'personality politics' you hate - politics is very much personality - how else do you inspire people as a leader without using your personality to do that?

Justanotherlurker · 18/02/2019 19:00

The appallingly dog whistles of Brexit certainly have parallels with the 1930's.

The rise of anti-Semitism, dismissing all opposing thoughts as being propoganda driven is adding to the 1930's feel for sure

67chevvyimpala · 18/02/2019 19:03

Yep.

Membership card in the bin.

But you see, I'm a 40 something woman, not a woke young thing or student so labour are not interested in my lifelong loyalty to the party.

Sadly for JC the student left won't win him a GE.

Labour are hemorrhaging members at national level. 150,000 last year isn't it?

67chevvyimpala · 18/02/2019 19:08

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gottagetbetter7 · 18/02/2019 19:09

I was heartened by this today. I have only ever voted Labour for 30 odd years but if there was a GE tomorrow I do not know who I would vote for. I only voted Labour last time by being personally persuaded by my MP that he also detested JC and he would not be around much longer to wreck the party. Shame I did not see my MP standing up there with this group today. JC is so deluded it is very unfunny indeed.

MissionItsPossible · 18/02/2019 19:13

For me it's everything slowly inching further and further right. That's because everything was inching further and further left, so the pendulum was bound to swing back at some point. I've always known the "you can't say that" mentality was eventually going to crumble. Most people are centrist I think and keep their opinions to themselves but it's the gobshites at either end of the spectrum that always polarise things.

HelenaDove · 18/02/2019 19:13

Agree with @Graphista @mrsglowglow and @BishopBrennansArse

i joined MN in 2011 and i too remember being told that we were scaremongering.

@Huntycat was a well known poster back then and she got the same criticism levelled at her.

The vitriol towards social housing tenants has got worse since 2010 and im talking both pre and post Grenfell. this has not happened in a vacuum.

BishopBrennansArse · 18/02/2019 19:14

The leave vote unleashed cess pool of racism and led to the most horrendous hate crimes. If that is preferable to 'you can't say that' then I'm aghast.