Anyone leaving Labour party with Chuka and his mates?

[longwayoff]

I am seriously worried. Politics across the West is an utter mess - thanks Putin, nice work - and I can't see that this will help. It will split the left vote and right-wing ideology will continue stomping its way to more power. We are asterisked all ways from hell to breakfast.

We need to get rid of FPTP

We had a referendum and PR fortunately lost.

I think if you are elected on a Labour platform, constituents have voted for a Labour MP and in turn for a lavel of labour representation in parliament. if you want to leave, the honourable thing to do is to resign your seat and stand again on your new platform in a by election, giving people the chance to elect either you or a labour representative.

I agree and obviously that applies regardless of party.

I'm a Tory voter and don't understand how the seven leaving Labour is positive in any way. I think a new central party is an unlikely pie in the sky, the LibDims are a one policy party and I can't see them increasing their vote in the next election, some of the Green Party's policies are frankly bonkers and if you keep chipping away at the labour party, with more people leaving, that gives Labour absolutely no chance of winning an election, not that they can anyway with Corbyn as leader.

I think to have an effective parliament, it's essential to have a strong opposition, no matter who is in power. It's good for checks and balances. Regretfully we don't have that and I don't see it changing.

What a bloody mess.

I know Corbyn from years ago and I tell you that he is not the man most of the Labour party want him to be. He is like your old uncle with his allotment and queer ideas that no-one else wants to listen to any more at family gatherings. The idea that he is some dynamic leader is actually hilarious. As a PP said, he has a fixed mindset and will never change his mind.

I support the idea of a new party and hope that pro Europe moderates from the Tories join them as I think they're on to something.

In years to come, Labour supporters will look back and wonder how they let anti-Semitism go unchecked.

"And then they came for me"

Is there a way of determining if some is an actual member of a party?
just saying 'I'm a labour party member and I hate all...' isnt going to stop my critical thinking skills from working

Oh right, the pro-Corbyn aggressive Twitter hordes, the local party hijacking, the threats and bullying, and the deselection moves are all a put up job...

Yes absolutely Shatners

While in theory that's a great idea - with 7 MPs its a bit of a damp squib really.

I don't actually think it will be just them tbh.

I think to have an effective parliament, it's essential to have a strong opposition,

And a strong government.

Sadly both are MIA.

constituents have voted for a Labour MP

No they haven't. They voted for an individual.

Just because you think you vote for a party doesn't mean that you do. Just because many people fail to understand the system doesn't mean we should pander to their ignorance.

We shouldn't change what we do to match the educational level we should increase political education.

We had a referendum and PR fortunately lost

I'm a Tory voter

Clearly that explains your first statement. Except that we didn't have a referendum on full PR but on an alternative vote that is neither fish nor fowl.

While in theory that's a great idea - with 7 MPs its a bit of a damp squib really

Only time will tell because at the moment they aren't actually a political party as such.

*constituents have voted for a Labour MP

No they haven't. They voted for an individual.

Just because you think you vote for a party doesn't mean that you do. Just because many people fail to understand the system doesn't mean we should pander to their ignorance.*

Actually you are wrong - but don't let that stop you insulting people who have a very good grasp of how the system works.

Of course if your assumption is correct and all MP's are elected as individuals (we'll gloss over the fact of safe seats in safe lab/tory areas because that dsimisses your argument) then those who have set themselves up as an independent group will have no problem with standing in a by election - if they have won on their own individual chars, they will have no bother getting re elected. Strangely none of them seem willing to do this.

They are also being rather coy about declaring themselves a 'party' - wonder why that is ? or can we all hazard a guess ?

All this talk of ‘extreme left’ makes me think of this diagram. Compare the current Labour manifesto with Callaghan’s. Go on. Dry, dry little difference. Corbyn’s Labour Party policies wouldn’t raise an eyebrow in Europe - they’d be seen as reasonable social democratic aims.
Im disappointed with Labour on women’s issues, I think the anti-semitism is over-hyped and no worse than other party (ie bad, but not a reason to vote against Labour).
Splitting the left wing vote an not be a good idea. The system already allows Tories in when most voters are centre or left of centre as PPs have said. Making it worse is a very, very poor political decision suggesting the MPs concerned are either politically naive or motivated by something other than the national interest.

then those who have set themselves up as an independent group will have no problem with standing in a by election

So has Jared O'Mara asked for a by election yet?

@Kurri Why don't ballot papers just say "Labour", "Conservative", "Liberal Democrat", "Green Party" then?

Yes, that successful Callaghan government. It appealed so much we had the winter of discontent followed by Thatcher.

I think the anti-semitism is over-hyped and no worse than other party (ie bad, but not a reason to vote against Labour)

So, if you're Jewish, you should put that aside, because it's, you know, bad but not a reason to vote against them?

And if you're not Jewish, but are against racism, you should put that aside because racism is bad, but not that bad really?

Fuck me.

it's not just a splinter lab group - the lib dems have already said they'll work with them

The Limp Dems would work with anything if they thought it'd get them a turn at the big boys' table. Frankly, they're such an irrelevance that we might as well vote for the Monster Raving Loony Party (Do they still exist ... ?)

@KurriKurri it is only recently that parties were put on ballot papers. On a GE the name of the candidate is in largest print and always comes first.

In a representative democracy you elect a representative, a person and absolutely NOT a party. Even in an electoral college as used in American presidential elections the individual could make a personal selection.

In some forms of PR there is a party list that candidates are selected from we do not use that system in GE in the U.K.

Please, present your evidence that we vote for parties. Evidence that is constitutionally based and is not just your opinion.

So has Jared O'Mara asked for a by election yet?

Probably not, should he? Yes

Why use what abouttery? Normally a weak argument if thats what youre using

Because our representatives have names - their parties are also declared on the ballot paper - so one could equally say 'why don;t ballot papers just say 'Bob Jones' 'Sally McKenzie'. They have names they have parties - that is basic factual information about the candidate.

I used to live in rural Norfolk - frankly you could put an ape up and if it was a tory ape it would get in with a landslide. No one said 'I'm voting for Billy the gibbon - they all said 'I'm voting Tory'

You think people seriously don;t care what party their chosen rep belongs to - that Labour or Lib Dems would vote for a UKIP rep if he was a nice chap ? You might get a few more votes for being anice chap, you might scrap a marginal if you show yourself to be an effective constituency MP especially in a by election. But when it comes to a GE by and large, over the country people vote party and policy not individual. Hence you get the big surprise defeats occuring in GE's of popular long standing MP's because political mood changes and thier personal popularity can't save them. And why swings in public opinion polls can be used to analyse and predict results in marginals, or even no marginals cshould there be a big enough turn in opinion. Otherwise you'd get the same people elected all the time and there'd never be any change - and on the whole that doesn't happen. Those MP's who stay in their jobs do so because they have a safe seat in a known party affiliated area.
I'm talking GE obviously not BE's wheere anything can happen and they can be used for a protest vote (but again - usually against a particular party or govt or policy)

Anti-Semitism is bad but not that bad

Right.

We should ALL have a duty to resist discrimination, not just when we are the ones discriminated against.

History has shown us time and again that Jews are the canary - I refer you to Pastor Niemoller on what happens when we ignore this because "it's not us"

Fuck me, just when I think I've heard every bit of lazy, pseudo-liberal, pseudo-critical thinking on MN, another one rears its head

They are also being rather coy about declaring themselves a 'party' - wonder why that is ? or can we all hazard a guess ?

Well, I know the reasons why I think they haven't. Why do you think they haven't?

Whataboutery my arse. It's not whataboutery when Corbynites are clamouring for these seven to stand for a by election but have not done the same with O'Mara.

On a GE the name of the candidate is in largest print and always comes first.

As long as you ignore all the campaigning before with all the trappings of the candidate in his red or blue rosette so you are knowingly voting for the party, suggesting otherwise is nothing more than being willfully obtuse

Prior to the 1970 GE only candidate name appeared on the ballot paper because in the U.K. we vote for individuals.

Party names appear to inform people but we don't vote for the party.

I think lots of people don't know this. Lots of people believe they are voting for a party but just because you believe it doesn't make it true.

You are correct in saying people think they are voting for a party, however, they are wrong in a representative democracy you vote for an individual. This is a constitutional fact. Sorry if you don't like it but it remains true.

It's not whataboutery when Corbynites are clamouring for these seven to stand for a by election but have not done the same with O'Mara

We're not a hive mind ffs , we're not even clamouring for a Frank Field by election even though we should

I think the anti-semitism is over-hyped and no worse than other party (ie bad, but not a reason to vote against Labour)

What? I mean...WHAT?

Good to know what people are willing to turn a blind eye to. Except not good, more "fucking fucking hell this is terrifying"