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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think everyone saying Shamima Begum should rot in Syria have completely overlooked the fact that she is pregnant

999 replies

StepAwayFromGoogle · 14/02/2019 13:39

Just that really. She did a terrible thing going to Syria to marry an ISIS fighter. But she was only 15 and probably incredibly naive. She has already lost two children, one as a complication of malnutrition. And the child she is pregnant with has done nothing wrong. Surely we shouldn't leave him or her there to die too?

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 15/02/2019 09:40

Was Sally Jones “recruited” at 15?

Juells · 15/02/2019 10:18

Was Sally Jones “recruited” at 15?

The point the pp made seemed to be that the only reason people weren't feeling sympathy for SB was that she was brown. I'm saying people don't feel sympathy for anyone, male or female, white or brown, who chose to join a death cult. Why pretend that 'death cult' wasn't the attraction? Some people like having the power of life and death over other people, forcing them to conform to their rigid un-livable-with rules so they're sure to fail and deserve punishment.

Psychopaths.

Cwenthryth · 15/02/2019 10:25

we don't know whether this is a young brainwashed girl or a hardened terrorist.

The two aren’t mutually exclusive though - it’s very possible she is both. But whatever she is, she is British, and therefore our responsibility to manage.

Babynut1 · 15/02/2019 10:29

Shame a bomb didn’t drop on her head.
Fuck her, the silly little girl has made her bed and now she can lie in it 👍🏻

Rockmysocks · 15/02/2019 10:31

Ms ToffiePennie: Red Campions: Pink Gin: and others expressing similar sentiments - I agree.

derxa · 15/02/2019 10:37

Why is this woman different from the 360 already returned Exactly.
She's photogenic, female and pregnant. It's perfect news fodder.

CameliaCamelia · 15/02/2019 11:26

Don't care what 'colour' she is!

Love how those with no real argument just settle on the fact she's 'brown'Grin

PregnantSea · 15/02/2019 11:34

Anybody who has voluntarily gotten involved with ISIS or anything related to ISIS is scum. I don't care what happens to her. It's very sad that she's pregnant, you are correct. What a shame that she's made such terrible choices as a parent. Perhaps if the country she lived in wasn't so backwards and barbaric they would step in and do something to protect the child.

Dontsweatthelittlestuff · 15/02/2019 11:44

We might not be able to stop her returning as she is a uk citizen but surely she would fail the habitual residence test? So would have no access to benefits or the nhs.

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/coming-from-abroad-and-claiming-benefits-the-habitual-residence-test/the-habitual-residence-test-an-introduction/what-is-the-habitual-residence-test-EWSNI/

girraffeduck · 15/02/2019 11:54

I think she's got a legal right to return? Tbh we don't make up rights based on if we like people or not thank goodness or we could end up with a holocaust situation where only an aryan race is given them.

I've used race but I don't think this is about that, if she has a legal right whether we like her or not shouldn't come into it is my point I'm trying to make

I do think she was young, groomed and a product of her environment entirely brainwashed by it and I have sympathy on that level but that doesn't mean I like who she is currently, I pity her though.

I think people are pitting too many arguments over her - is her baby any more important than Syrian babies? Any less important?

Laws and rights should not be based on popularity and should be upheld lest we turn into a nation who thinks bins of heads are fine if they didn't agree with our agenda

ReflectentMonatomism · 15/02/2019 11:58

I do think she was young, groomed and a product of her environment entirely brainwashed by it

What environment? Her family? Sounds like a good reason to prevent her rejoining them, then. Her school? That's quite the accusation. Her neighbourhood? What "environment" is prevalent in Zone 2 such that people are "entirely brainwashed" without anyone noticing until it's too late?

girraffeduck · 15/02/2019 12:06

@ReflectentMonatomism most of us are shaped by where we are born, who we meet, things we experience

15 is very young to be a particularly independent thinker. She wasn't equipped to defend herself from being indoctrinated and radicalised. Sadly

ReflectentMonatomism · 15/02/2019 12:20

She wasn't equipped to defend herself from being indoctrinated and radicalised.

How did she come into contact with that indoctrination and radicalisation, other than through conscious, sustained choice? How many fifteen year olds are able to steal the price of a plane ticket it, obtain a passport, buy the ticket and catch the flight? That's not like getting into the car of a man you met at the chip shop, being plied with drink and alcohol, being sexually assaulted and then blackmailed into continued co-operation with abuse. Where's the threat? Where's the grooming? This was a choice.

We were repeatedly told that their families knew nothing of radicalisation which was (a) extraordinary if true, as you would have thought Muslim parents would be aware of the risks and (b) as it happens, in at least one case a bare-faced lie, as at least one sets of parents were straightforward extremists who were if not members at least enthusiastic and active supporters of a banned terrorist organisation. We were also told how clever they were, Astar pupils, and so on.

In Rotherham and Rochdale, the victims of grooming were mostly marginalised children already known to, or who should have been known to, social services. Although their parents may not have crossed the line into actionable inadequacy, they were not strict, deeply engaged parents: your 13 year old being routinely exposed to the "night economy" is not a mark of engaged parenting. They were struggling in school, truanting, otherwise disengaged. Children's services are rightly lambasted for not picking up and dealing with these signs.

So far as we were told at the time these children disappeared from Bethnal Green, none of that was true: these were bright children from supportive households, successful at school, plenty of friends, no social services involvement. Model families, in fact. So what happened?

BubblesBuddy · 15/02/2019 12:28

The whole point about radicalisation is that caring people around these young persons do not know! It’s use of the internet and not realising what the truth is. She liked what she saw and what she was promised. Of course she was young and stupid. She didn’t have the life experience to realise what would happen. She rebelled against sanity and a standard life. People make huge mistakes. She’s one of thousands all over Europe.

However she is British. Our laws must be upheld and if she gets back here, that’s what must happen. She won’t be alone.

Guineapiglet345 · 15/02/2019 12:32

If she does manage to make her way back to the UK I can’t imagine what sort of life she would have, her face has been on the front of every newspaper, her child wouldn’t be safe and she doesn’t seem particularly repentant.

Juells · 15/02/2019 12:41

She liked what she saw

Yup. That's why people don't have any sympathy for her.

BarbarianMum · 15/02/2019 13:23

I do have some (limited) sympathy for her actually. And more for her unborn child. But I dont see why she's more deserving of help than the thousands of others now living in camps because of ISIL, quite the opposite.

I also worry about the danger she may pose to others if she comes back to the UK, to a society she despises (apart from the NHS). She might spend a year or two jn jail then live quietly w her child (if she's allowed to keep it). Or she may go hunting the internet again, to find something else that she "likes". Not like ISIL have really gone away.

OhDearGodLookAtThisMess · 15/02/2019 13:25

Does anyone know what the chances are of her making it out of the camp she's in in Syria to Iraq or Turkey? It doesn't look that far on the map (but might be small-scale!). Is she free to leave the camp? Are there any transport links? How would she cross the border? What official papers does she have? A British passport still?

ReflectentMonatomism · 15/02/2019 13:28

What official papers does she have? A British passport still?

Probably the answers are "None, and no" - IS recruits routinely burned their passports on arrival as a loyalty signal. Since she's currently in a refugee camp run by a non-state actor, she presumably has no documents that any state would recognise. In theory she can ask for consular support from the UK, as could anyone who lost their passport while on holiday. But there's a long way from "I'm in a hotel on 5th avenue, my passport has been stolen, can I have another one please so I can board my pre-booked BA flight home next week?" to her situation.

OhDearGodLookAtThisMess · 15/02/2019 13:31

Especially as there's no British Consul in Syria. And no one appears to have the will to send anyone in to deliver one to her.

BarbarianMum · 15/02/2019 13:31

I think it depends on whether she survives the birth and what happens in Syria next. If peace returns the camps may start to disperse and travel to adjacent areas should become easier. But I'm not sure its going to be as simple as that, nor that she'll be so keen to return to the UK if she knows she faces a police investigation and might lose her child.

OhDearGodLookAtThisMess · 15/02/2019 13:34

Police investigation for what though? She left the UK of her own free will, but that wasn't a crime, was it? Anything she may or may not have done since being in Syria is going to be very difficult to prove, and is it our job to do that anyway? Committing crimes abroad is for that country to deal with, surely? And Syria hardly has a stable legal setup.

Imissgmichael · 15/02/2019 13:36

I’d have thought the Syrian would have arrested her by now?

There was a chap on the news this morning saying they could actually strip her of U.K. citizenship if she has dual citizenship. The Home Office could also just cancel her passport apparently.

Imissgmichael · 15/02/2019 13:37

THe Syrian authorities.

BarbarianMum · 15/02/2019 13:38

Theres quite a lot of information been gathered about what foriegn combatants got up to apparently. And as a pp said, it's known that many foreign women were active participates in the murder/rape/enslavement of local people (esp other women) so there's a fair likelyhood that she's got a deal of blood on her hands. And that there are people alive somewhere to testify to it.