AIBU to tell it to my DD as it is?

[mioko]

DD is 15, and is applying for sixth form. She wants to be a surgeon, and has for a long time. She wants to do biology, chemistry and maths. The only problem is that I don't believe she's smart enough to go down this route. I've gently tried to push her more towards nursing, but she's adamant. She only got a 3 in her science mocks, and a 4 in maths. In my head, this just doesn't seem enough. My son is currently in uni doing veterinary medicine, and he got all A's in his GCSES. I don't want to be absolutely awful and tell my daughter she 'isn't good enough' to achieve her dreams, but I really don't want her to be let down. Should I just tell her?

I wouldn’t write her off just yet. If she’s predicted 7s and 8s she may pull it out of the bag yet. Mocks are often marked vigorously to give pupils a wake up call - and with a bit of luck that’s what happened to your daughter.

You never know how things will pan out for her when she's just 15. She is working hard, you say, so clearly she is able to set goals and focus and that is the hardest part of achieving anything. Maybe she is working hard right now but not working smart? You should look into a tutor to teach her how to study more effectively.

Be careful what you say to her though. It's alright to reveal on an online forum that you don't think she is as bright as her brother but if you are giving any signs of that in real life she will pick up on that very quickly and that's something that would be awful for her to know.

My DH is working at the top of his profession in tech, earning 1%-er salary and working in a highly regarded area. When he was 16 he wanted to take higher level physics and his mother said to him, do you think you're bright enough for that? Because he had been sick the previous year and got mostly Cs and Ds. As it turns out, he went on to do much better in college than he did at school and then went on to do a PhD and succeed. He has never let his mother forget that comment she made though!

I would also agree with previous posters pointing out that while surgery might be a long shot for her right now, if she gets into a biomedical sciences degree she might do well in college and then can use that as a springboard into a medical career of some kind. It's not all about getting into medicine as an undergrad.

Is there a teacher who could be a little blunt with her? I really coasted at school found it quite easy to get A's in exams and left coursework until the last minute. I was a lot more engaged in arts than sciences.

I got an E on my maths mock, I was dumbstruck, I didn't get E's. The teacher pulled me aside and I remember it so clearly said to me 'you might be able to walk into an English lesson use a few fancy words and blag yourself a top mark. That won't work in my subject and whether you like it or not to get into the sixth forms and universities you want you need a good maths mark.' Thinking about it now, I'm pretty sure I shouldn't have been given an E on that exam, but it was the shock I needed. I worked my backside off in maths for the rest of the year and got an A* at GCSE. It actually made me tearful when I opened my envelope.

OP if your daughter is predicted high grades then there's hope and I think it would be counter productive to discourage her- she needs to go through the process for herself.

If it helps I failed all my mocks because I didn't bother with them but got 10A*s as predicted in my GCSEs after serious last minute revision. Unfortunately I carried this complacency through to my A Levels and didn't meet the grades for my uni offers (got AABBB with Bs in the wrong subjects). After resitting the subject I needed an A in during a "gap" year, I was able to go to uni and have made a great career in the profession I wanted. But I'm glad my parents let me learn that for myself and didn't discourage me from my career even though they could see I wasnt revising enough to get the grades first time round.

As long as she understands the grades she needs to get I think you should leave her to it and hope for the best. If she wants it enough she'll get there eventually.

No, you tell her that she she can achieve anything she wants by hard work

I think stick to the facts like the grades she needs to get, and emphasise she doesn't have to make her mind up now.

As a teen I wanted to do a science and business course, my parents told me I'd never make it and anyway I'd never get a job out of it. Ten years later I've met a few people that did the course, and they are just normal people of average intelligence. Also they all have jobs. Maybe my mum was right and I would have failed, but by not going for my dream I failed anyway.

Secretly I blame my mum a little. She didn't have to encourage me but she could have at least said nothing. Although I know this is unfair so I'd never say it to her.

So incredibly insulting to nurses.

What about suggest Tutoring, to help get her grades up. That is being supportive and may help her achieve her goals. Also for her to get career advice. Good luck to your daughter.

Is it possible that’s the exam she panicked in? My son is expected anything between 7 and 9 for his exams, some this year some next, he’s on target with history but when it came to the mock he got a 3, couldn’t remember anything and that’s his (supposed) best subject!

It sounds as if your dd would benefit from some kind of tutoring if funds stretch to this. Perhaps she’s lazy, perhaps she’s lost her way a little. It doesn’t sound as if she’s lacking ability from what you’ve said. Maybe science is something she just needs explaining again to get her head around it. It’s not uncommon for people to fail dismally at a subject at school but for it to click into place I’m later years.

It seems like she is just focusing on the end goal rather than what she actually has to do to achieve it.

You also said that she's more motivated by the money than the job itself- bad sign!

Personally I think she also wants to do it because her brother is studying vet med.

I would just calmly remind her what she needs to do in order to pursue this career path and then take a big step back.

I also agree with others re the nursing comment. It's not a fall back career for those who have flunked their GCSEs and A levels! It's very challenging in its own right and there is no chance she would be accepted onto a nursing degree with 3's and no A levels.

Does she know what grades she needs to do A level in those subjects?

Is there a parents evening coming up? I would get her to tell you what her plan is for meeting her target grades, and then more or less leave her to it, beyond a normal level of support.

YANBU - it’s hard but true, she has no hope with those marks. If you think she’s bright enough and could do it if she put the work in you could try a tough love approach and make it clear that if she doesn’t pull her finger out and put in some serious grit now, she will lose out on her dream.

If however you think that there wouldn’t be a chance even if she did work to her best capacity, you might need to be more gentle. Careers advice might be a helpful option in that case.

The thing is, if she’s predicted 7/8s then the school actually think she is capable of performing at that level, which may be good enough for medicine. So what have they said about her terrible mocks results?

I think you need to be clear with her that according to her predicted grades she is capable of going on to medicine, but on her current performance she won’t achieve it. So what can you do to help her? I’d start with a discussion with the school about her mock results and then discuss tutors and revision courses.

My d is year 13 and applying for medicine this year. I think it’s worth pointing out that now that A levels are linear so there are no AS level or first year module grades to look at, and predicted grades are notoriously unreliable, lots of medical schools are using gcse and entrance test (ukcat/BMAT) results to shortlist for interviews. Some just want to see a threshold score at gcse then rank applicant by test results (they take the entrance tests in the summer/autumn at the start of year 13), but others give a points score for gcse results and combine this with entrance test scores.

It’s not enough to rely on just getting the grades to be able to do the required subjects at sixth form - depending on the unis she’s interested in, gcse results can affect their chances of getting an interview.

One of the doctors I work with (I’m a nurse), didn’t get the grades needed for medicine at university. Instead, she did a bachelors then masters in other scientific fields then applied for medicine after getting those - of course, she must have had good science grades to get into her first degree.

My point is though, that even if she doesn’t get the best grades first time around, it doesn’t mean that she’ll never get into medicine.

My husband didn’t do well at A-level first go round (teen laziness and family worries). He took a year out to work, then redid them at a FE college, then went onto the degree he’d originally wanted.

Let her find out for herself.

I don't want to hurt her, but I also don't want her hurt when she gets turned down by the courses she wants to do.

Well it sounds like she's going to find out sooner or later and get hurt at some point anyway so don't make it you, especially as she's not open to alternative ideas at the moment and will just think you're putting her down etc.

As others have said, have some alternative ideas up your sleeve for when the time comes and be there to support her and pick up the pieces and move forward.

It's not all about how you do first time round these days. I would also be frustrated by comments like "oh but I didn't work for my mocks" which I agree means she's seriously misunderstood that she needs to be working consistently all the way through, not faffing about and pulling her finger out at the last minute. But I'm in a profession that requires high academic achievement and a minimum of 5 years' study, and you would be surprised how many people we see in their 20s, 30s and even 40s who take it up as a second career and excel after a fairly middling/unimpressive academic start. Either she's right and she can pull a rabbit out of the hat at the last minute, in which case she may have to wait until her 40s to work out how stressful that kind of approach is day to day like I did or she's wrong, in which case poor grades will be a big kick up the bum and hopefully will inspire her to do better. I think you're right to leave her to it and encourage her to work harder rather than talking her out of the choice of career.

It's perfectly possible if she works hard now to raise her grades to the desired level. My daughter was predicted mostly Cs at GCSE and didn't get a single C.

(Her lowest grade was a B and she only had 2 of them).

However, your daughter needs to work out for herself what she needs to do to get the grades she needs to get in order to get the Uni place if she wants to be a surgeon. Start with Uni requirements and get her to work back to find what grades she needs to get 'as a minimum' to get onto the right A levels, and work with her to establish a revision plan to achieve it.

I did completely hands off as my daughter hates faffing and stressing people around her, and simply said to her to work out what you need to get in terms of grades to get onto the A levels you want, and then work out a revision plan as to how you get those grades and left her to it.

From what you've said, she knows what she needs to get. She knows she didn't study for mocks. What good will it do trying to discourage her?

I got C's for all my mocks and then straight As in the finals. I went to Cambridge. And I'm a doctor.

Leave her be and try not to project your own anxiety onto her.

This won't happen. I got 11A stars in my GCSE mocks and got a U at A level chemistry. Dsis got 12 A stars and only got onto one medicine course and found it v difficult.

Well you believe she can improve grades of she tries is she trying ? This is just a Idea but I work in a doctor's just admin and you said your husband has a friend who is a doctor if the surgery is a training practice they may have medical students visiting (we do ) would it be worth it so see if she could talk to someone at medical school about work load grades ECT?

But yes, I wouldn't tell her now. Let her decide after GCSE results