AIBU to tell it to my DD as it is?

[mioko]

DD is 15, and is applying for sixth form. She wants to be a surgeon, and has for a long time. She wants to do biology, chemistry and maths. The only problem is that I don't believe she's smart enough to go down this route. I've gently tried to push her more towards nursing, but she's adamant. She only got a 3 in her science mocks, and a 4 in maths. In my head, this just doesn't seem enough. My son is currently in uni doing veterinary medicine, and he got all A's in his GCSES. I don't want to be absolutely awful and tell my daughter she 'isn't good enough' to achieve her dreams, but I really don't want her to be let down. Should I just tell her?

My friend is a doctor. The work she put in was unreal, almost unbearable to watch as a friend. The process pretty much broke her, and now she’s been put back together again by being qualified as a GP and really enjoying it. The hours and effort from not only her, but her entire family, plus immense financial support, made me realise that I’m not sure my children will ever be doctors. I say that despite my attempts to give them the best of every opportunity out there, I just don’t think it’s a case of being bright or having a supportive family - it’s like a superhuman effort to achieve it. I think to become a surgeon, everyone needs to be extremely realistic about what that really entails, otherwise it’s a waste of everyone’s time and energy. Get her to read ‘This is going to hurt’ by Adam Kay, about the realities and sacrifices of actually becoming a doctor. I wouldn’t write off becoming a doctor because of low mock results as a stand-alone issue, because we’ve all been obnoxious teenagers who tell ourselves and everyone else that “oh, that isn’t important so I’m not bothering”, but general and overall intelligence and the ability to apply herself when needed is the important factor. I think all of this is moot really until she does the actual GSCEs, but yes do reiterate that if she doesn’t pull her finger out for those, then it won’t be a good enough result to study medicine.

It’s quiet rude to say ‘you can’t be a doctor so be a nurse instead’
Nursing is hard in its own right, and a lot of people train very hard to be one. Don’t belittle it because you think it’s easy for her to teach over a doctor.
They are also completely different jobs so I doubt being a nurse would fulfil her the way her dreams to be a surgeon do.
There’s a lot of other routes she can take, and other positions in relation to surgical procedures if that’s where she wants to go.
Support her with revision, 6th form and the future. She’ll never make it if she isn’t supported.

Easy for her to become over a doctor** not teach!

I wouldn’t say anything this late in the school year and so close to her GCSEs. Not a good time to put a dampener on her hopes as it may stop her from revising. Also she may well change her mind once she gets her results.

The best thing you can do now is to keep encouraging her to revise, sit with her if it helps, and encourage her to do the best she can for this stage. Explain that these exams are merely a stepping stone for the next phase and she won’t want to get her results in August and then wish she had worked harder as it will be too late. That is our mantra at the moment with DS and it seems to be working!

My nephew always wanted to be a doctor from a young age, but due to the bad life decisions from his mother he was not in this country for long enough to get good grades in his GCSEs. However he worked really, really hard afterwards and although older than others when he started training he is now a surgeon.

Don't put her off! She knows it's tough to get the best grades and she either tries her best to achieve them or she doesn't. Let her keep her aspirations and ambitions. She'll find out if it's not viable soon enough.
If you discourage her she will blame you for everything that goes wrong with her exams and career.

DD's friend studied intensively for medicine, 9-5 at the library EVERY WEEKEND and 9-5 every day of every holiday. She also volunteered weekly at an old people's home because A* academic success is not enough on its own. She was 100% focussed on her goal and her parents enforced this regime. They are both biomedical scientists and knew what it would take.

Maybe there is a way to get your dd to realise quite how competitive it is to get to med school by getting some careers guidance.
Also perhaps look together at entry requirements for undergraduate courses - they may stipulate GCSE grades as well as A level grades?
And ask your dd if she would like your help in getting relevant work experience placements to help her application eg at a hospital or care home.
Also what does her brother think about her chances? He should have a good idea about it.

Tutoring is a great idea if you can afford it and if dd wants it.

I think you need to work out for yourself if your dd has the intelligence and drive to become a surgeon. Her marks just now are not the point as she might not be applying herself.
If she’s bright then it might be an idea to discuss the fact that she needs to pull her finger out of her arse and get some work done or it may be that her dream career passes her by.
If you genuinely don’t think that she has it in her then get ready to hold her hand and give her lots of cuddles when she doesn’t get the grades and discuss alternative careers then.
I know of a few people who have gone into medicine after a false start in another career so if she has the ability it’s not the end of the world if it doesn’t happen now. (But I’m not sure I’d share that information...)

A word of caution regarding coaching - if your DD needs it for science subjects and maths at GCSE for real lack of understanding (rather than lack of revision / exam technique / to lift a grade) - then even if they do well they will (probably) need it as much (or more) for A level. Will she want to spend hours for the next few years being coached in 3(ish) subjects (before you even consider the cost). Coaching can be great as a means to an end but as a long term solution it takes real commitment and also time if you travel to the tutors’ address(es).

If she works really hard her dream may be achievable- so this should be encouraged instead. Things will work themselves out. If shes let down then that will be a very important lesson she will learn in life. I have been shattered when Ive tried to achieve in the past and failed but it only made me work harder. I'm stronger now and have more drive

I wouldn’t tell her she’s not clever enough, I’d just encourage her to get her arse in gear. She still has a few months, saying something like “you’ll never get the grades” could make her completely give up. Don’t demotivate her, encourage her instead. If she doesn’t get the grades she can cross that bridge when she comes to it. As for suggesting nursing as an alternative we’ll that’s just silly, if she wants to be a nurse she needs to make that decision.

Someone has already mentioned ODP - operating department practitioner. This is a great option AND you can do a degree apprenticeship to qualify, so no student loans and job at the end of it.

I'd mention it. It will be competitive to get onto the course, but could be just what she wants.

www.stepintothenhs.nhs.uk/careers/operating-department-practitioner

You don't need to be overly realistic. My mum thought I would never amount to anything despite my brothers being destined for Oxbride which never happened BTW. Anyway I have 2.1 bsc. If she herself she wants it she will get there even if it takes a bit longer. Give her time to grow up. Nursing is OK (I'm a nurse) but in all honesty the pay is crap and opportunities are limited.

I know a girl who last year got a 3 in her Biology mock but then got a 9 in the real thing, so it is possible. However she put in a huge amount of work so if your DD wants to improve her grades then she really needs to get her head down.

For now she needs to just be focussing her energy on getting onto the A levels she wants. If she puts her best effort in she may still get there (Feb is a good time to really start taking things seriously after the shock of mocks) and from there you can then look at the next stage. Even if she picks and gets into those A levels with a view to being a surgeon which as you say seems an aim too high, they will still get her into a lot of allied courses and professions if she applies the same hard work to them as she did her GCSEs. The leap is massive though- I aced my GCSEs without much bother but struggled at A level because as PP said I wasn't in good habits. Uni was easier/more manageable but I was lucky to get into my first choice with the grades I ended up with.

It would help her to hear the truth, but probably not from you, given you're her mum and cheerleader.

One of my boss' kids loathed her post-college job in PR. She's dyslexic, so writing anything=problem for both her and the communications industry. Colleges make allowances for dyslexia. The real world can't. Parting of ways.

She went back to school for three years, convinced she wanted to be a GP, took science A/L at a cost of thousands, etc. Didn't get into medical school.

Two failed careers on, she's skint, ruined her 20s, has no employment skills at knocking 30 and feels awful.

Sometimes, we all need someone to put us right about what we can and can't do.

I tried to explain to her that the science courses will have people who got 9's trying to get onto them, and that they're very demanding, but she just doesn't listen.

You've told her, now let her be, let her get on with studying as hard as she can for her GCSE's and get the best mark she is capable of, then she can reconsider if she doesn't get the results she needs.

Sorry if I’m being slow but I’m not sure from your posts whether the issue is (a) ability or (b) effort - or a combination of the two? In your first post you say you just don’t think she’s smart enough but in your second you say she was predicted 7s and 8s - aren’t those pretty good grades? And an 8 could presumably be improved to a 9 with hard work?

If the issue is effort then of course you have to tell her - it would be terrible parenting not to. She has to know that if she doesn’t knuckle down and get significantly better grades than she did in her mocks then her dream of being a surgeon pretty much ends here.

I haven't RTFT, so apologies if this has been said before, it's just my personal experience of it.

I wouldn't say anything at this stage. Only your daughter really knows how much work she put in for the mocks and the results will let her know what she needs to do. Either she didn't revise much and it will be a kick up the wherever to really apply herself for the real thing. Or perhaps she did revise more than she's letting on and is quietly coming to the realisation herself that maybe it isn't to be and she should start thinking of some other options. I assume it's still the case that you can only use 4 of your options for medicine, leaving 2 for something else (it's been nearly 15 years since I applied).

I was also that driven, single minded, won't-consider-anything-else student (for veterinary medicine). I got top grade GCSEs with a fair bit of work but without having to absolutely bust a gut revising. But A Levels are a whole different ball game and, my God, I had to suddenly apply myself in a way I had never had to before. It's a huge step up and I only got the grades for vet school by working at my absolute maximum.

It's really difficult to let go of a big dream, especially if you've let it almost start to define you. My parents always let me know it was OK to change my mind, perhaps take this tactic with your daughter? I wonder whether she feels she has to try to "match" her brother (not to imply there's any external pressure on her, just might be how she's feeling?).

I’m afraid medical school is highly unlikely given her mock grades.
Nursing may also be out of her reach. To get 3’s at mocks is really worrying, she’s presumably looking at 6 at best as an aspirational grade.
That said I really understand that you don’t want to be the one to burst her bubble. Your role is love and support
I would imagine school would be able to talk to her about this.
Does she feel pressure because her brother is studying veterinary science ?
Sounds like she needs to find her own niche and to love herself..
Good luck op

OP, do you doubt she can achieve the results purely based on her mock results?

As a slightly lazy 14/15yo I didn’t do any work for my mocks, did terribly (I think I even had a U in one or two subjects), my teachers still predicted straight A’s, and they were right and that’s what I got. For what’s its worth, I then studied medicine with no problems.

Don’t talk to her because you doubt her ability, talk to her because you want her to choose the best career for her. As PP have said, medicine is hard, and it’s a hard lifestyle choice, and as much as I love my job now, a few years ago I wouldn’t have wished it on anyone.

See how her actual exams go, mocks tell you nothing IMO. Her teachers will know what she can really achieve if she puts her mind to it.

Don't tell your daughter she isn't good enough. She's 15. The world is her oyster!

Undoubtedly, medicine is one of the most challenging courses to get on to, but if she is willing to put in the hard work, then you should support her. Even if she doesn't quite make the necessary requirements at GCSE and A Level, she might, for instance be accepted onto a biomedical science course and then go on to do graduate medicine.

If, however, she isn't bright enough or committed enough, then she will soon discover it for herself.

That's such a difficult dilemma for you OP. I know if it were my daughter - and I thought she was coasting - I'd definitely be inclined to tell her like it is because if she were looking at a career in medicine as a doctor/surgeon, she'd be expecting considerable support from the family. I wouldn't be prepared to give that for somebody who wasn't willing to put in the work because it would be a complete waste of time and money.

I don't know if I'd want my daughter to waste her time so I think if you can draft in somebody outside the family to tell her straight how much work her chosen career is and to be sure that she has the ability as well as the aptitude, it might save her wasted years and anguish.

Teenagers can be supremely arrogant about their abilities and thankfully, the grades required will ensure that she doesn't get to impact people's lives, but I know that's no consolation for you as you want her to succeed. Of course you do.

I wouldn't leave her in a situation where she hears an unspoken 'told you so' if and when she fails to progress, I couldn't do that.

Not read all replies but my mocks were dreadful got ungraded in maths and science and nothing else above a C. I just didn't care about mocks. I knew what was needed to do my A levels and I worked very hard from about Easter. I passed with all As and Bs. Make sure she knows what is required and then let her choose.

I can understand your worry re getting onto the A level courses - are the grades particularly high to do them? To be honest they should be as otherwise those doing them might not be able to cope.

I choose the wrong a levels first time round (no one told me my gcse were not good enough to get into medical school - I did ask!) and ended up starting again with new ones. It wasn’t the most fun I’ve ever had but in the longer term did me now harm.

I’d be as irritated by the lack of effort as you though and sounds as though surgeon might be something she wants to do as she has heard of it. I wouldn’t have known my now job existing when I was 20 let alone 15!