That this work sickness policy is utterly crazy?

[SongforSal]

Been with the company over 2yrs and have always had a good sickness record. A few months ago I was very worried and in lots of pain as I had a period problem. My menstrual cycle lasted a good 3mths with only the odd day off. Other than a hospital appointment I had been waiting for an internal (I took a holiday day) there was one other day during this time, where I had to call in sick as I was in no position to work.

Last week, I called in sick for the day as I woke up in the night vomiting. Couldn't keep even water down. Didn't fancy the prospect of throwing up at my desk!

After a meeting with my boss, I was informed that having had 2 separate sick days, within a 6 month period, if I took another sick day within the next 6months-I would get a disciplinary!

Now, my contract allows 10 days per year paid sick leave. There are no stipulations, nor references to and reprimands, verbal or disciplinary procedures which may be enforced within this contract. Not that I have ever taken the piss.

Here comes the what the fuck rabbit hole have I just fallen down.

So. A colleague came into work today sweating, coughing, kept running to the bathroom, clearly very much unwell. On the back of a couple of weeks ago, when another colleague came in and spent 3 days at his desk with a cough, headache ect and chugging back lemsips. I asked my boss ''What happens if I catch this bug?'' and the reply I got was I could basically soldier on in as it is my choice to work, however if I got ill, and stayed home. You guessed it-a disciplinary.

So I am thinking I may need to invest in a hazmat suit for work, and fill the pockets with bloody dettol spray, as people are having to come in ill-or face reprimands! I can see why they feel forced to do so, but the knock on effect (selfishly) is I will get ill from being at work, and effectively punished if I take time off as to recover and not infect everyone else.

Does my place of work sound like a 18th century factory to you? Is this common?

Ours seem generous in comparison it's 5 separate absences in a rolling 12 month period, and HR asks your manager to review things. I triggered this a few years ago, because I just had a bad run of infections, colds and so on - my immune system was obviously a bit battered at the time. My manager was more annoyed by having to discuss it than I was.

The point of the review is to see if anyone is taking the piss - a pattern of Monday absences, for example - and thatvshould lead to a disciplinary investigation. But it''s also to see if there's something more going on, that might need extra management, like the start of a chronic illness that needs reasonable adjustments, or something major like cancer, which will need lots of tests and treatment. We have had people on long term sick who have come back in time, after months, and others who have left after being off sick for ages.

It's easier to manage people who are off long term, but you know about that (obviously it's easier if you can afford cover, whether time wise or financially.) Short, but unexpected absences, are more difficult, just because they're not predictable. So I would rather someone took an extra day or two and made a proper recovery, than come back too soon, then need more time a few days later, or leave themselves more susceptible to every passing contagion. I don't see how starting disciplinary proceedings when someone is actually ill rather than skiving actually helps staff or the employer.

@badlydrawnperson "I was wondering if it's one of those things like "skills shortages" which are cited as a crisis when it's nothing of the kind - it's just unviable business models expecting masses of highly skilled workers to be available cheaply, that's all."

I hear you. And also businesses that can't factor humanity into their strategy - including the fact that people get ill.

I’ve worked for many companies and never been disciplined for being off sick. I generally only take time off when I get signed off sick.

When I worked for an airline and cabin crew, they tried to clamp down on sickness but you also got various ailments “discounted” such as blocked ears or D&V as you couldn’t fly with them.

When I worked in banking, I was signed off for a month with gastro issues whilst I was having investigations. I did trigger an absence discussion but as I had a sick note and a clear reason for being off my manager was lovely and very nice.

In the civil service I was off for a month with a broken arm. I didn’t really have a proper line manager and nobody had a back to work chat with me or anything!

I know that being signed off can’t prevent you being dismissed eventually or put in the absence monitoring process.

But I’ve always worked in the public sector or very large companies that have formal sickness policies and processes to go through before they can dismiss you. Long term sickness is generally dealt with under a separate part of the formal process.

I’m guessing that smaller companies would probably find it easier to dismiss you as long as they stick within the confines of the law?

I once had a grand total of 2 days off when I miscarried. It was my second instance of illness in a 12 month period and I was asked what I would do to prevent it happening again. The business recently went bankrupt and it made me so happy.

NameyMcNameChange1 - I’m sorry, that’s awful!

Doesn’t pregnancy related sickness get discounted from normal sickness absence processes?

I was told to be careful as I just triggered the 3 in a year one day short if the year.I had flu last year took a day off,struggled in the next and was sent home by my boss,because I'd been at work a few hours this counted as a separate episode.My last one as 2 weeks,doctors note for the whole thing but triggered it.
It is a very blunt instrument though,someone at work triggered it and had a formal letter.She had been off with flu,came back and was obviously unwell,sent down toA&E and ended up in ITU.
I work in a hospital so if you see nurses and doctored coughing, as they pass the sign asking relatives not to visit if unwell,now you know why.

That's shocking @NameyMcNameChange1, how awful. It should have been treated as pregnancy related sickness. Recorded but not counted in any disciplinary process.

Thanks @Grace212 I was sorry the other poster took it so personally - and s/he has an interest in emphasising a "problem" that's all.

Like a lot of these types of wanky policies, they are a way of trying to make managers do a job they should be doing anyway - whilst pissing off the people with a legitimate reason to have been absent. Poor management means everyone suffers because of a tiny minority of people taking the piss.

Thanks for all the comments. I fell asleep early last night and have been at work all day, so have just caught up.
I agree Badlydrawnperson having spoken to a few colleagues at work today they seem to have figured out how to work the system so to speak, whilst it wouldn't occur for me to do so. The minority ruin it for the rest of us.
NameyMcNameChange1-That is fucking appalling. What utter bastards!

Our policy is the same I received a verbal warning for sickness last winter there was a section on the form asking if there was anything employer could do to help, I wrote make it spring already and a few days later the beast from the east hit

3 in 12 months is a lot. I’ve not had a day off sick in 15 years.

3 in 12 months is a lot. I’ve not had a day off sick in 15 years.

Not more of this shit. Not helpful. At all. and I haven't either - but that's not the point. 3 in 12 months is not a lot.

3 in 1 year is a lot if it’s every single year, but it’s perfectly possible to have 3 instances in 12 months, because your body is run down from the 1st illness so you catch something else or you’re just unlucky - but it is unusual (and very lucky!) not to have a single instance of sickness in 15 years.

I have had to sign a document to agree to not being unwell for a 6 month period. I've got 2 months left and I've been in to work with a lung infection/chest infection and given all my colleagues a nasty virus I had two weeks ago. My senior bosses and 'policy maker' people don't care. I was told how fantastic I am for dragging myself in with severe pregnancy sickness, all I heard was 'well done for hitting our targets by attending work when you were not fit to do so'. My own manager sent me home on one of these occasions on the understanding we didn't tell anyone. I understand why the policies exist, but I think that discretion and common sense would be much more useful than silly policies.

Songforsal , if you have correctly interpreted you contract correctly I would show it to your boss and ask him how he interprets it !

Oops! before the grammar police come out , yes I used correctly twice .:+)

Not seen if asked...

Are you in a union? And does the company recognise a union?

I was in a union when I worked, but due to the nastiest word in living g history when it came to contracts... DISCRETION. In reality, they did what was "advisement only", and never paid sick leave, and it didn't matter.if.you had a sick note or not.

I recommend, you call ACAS. They are basically the rule book on employment. So have your contract with you, along with pen n paper, when you phone them.

They will tell you what is allowed, and what your contract is worth... IE is it worth the paper it's written on.

ACAS HELPLINE
0300 123 1100 M-F 8AM TO 6PM

pic is from their page on a little help before calling... Mumsnet, you could pin this pic as help for anyone facing employment problems.

I had no idea!! I’ve been self employed for 20 years. This is insane! ...and then people wonder why there are so many people on benefits. They forget how many have genuine and chronic health issues that popping pills won’t fix. Pretty much confirms people feeling unemployable.

Absence is only a major problem because:

• companies and organisations are cutting their workforce to the bone, either because of imposed budgetary constraints by shortsighted fuckwitted government, or fuckwitted prioritise-shareholder policies

• most people in any given organisation are also fuckwits, following imposed one-size-fits-some processes and not allowed to something appropriate to a specific circumstance if they have any nous about them

• managers aren't being taught how to actually manage, so they get given 'tools' like the Bradford index and then look at the fuckwit who never leaves their desk but doesn't really work either, throw up their hands and say "it's too hard to fire people these days". Because they're fuckwits.

Basically the problem is fuckwits, and oh so many of them will be wiped out by the next flu pandemic because their fuckwit bosses wanted bums on seats.

Fuckwits.

this is totally insane. You're ill you're ill. You cannot control when or for how long. I am aghast that some people think it's acceptable.

It’s pretty standard tbh.

You are absolutely right that the minority ruin it for everyone. I own a business. We runs tight ship on this because some people take the piss.

One of my team has told me he (yes, not asked me) he is working late start or early finish due to appointments 4 times in last 8 weeks. So now, to ensure its fair treatment for all, I'm about to email everyone to say no personal appointments during working hours. Whereas the odd doc/dentist/whatever I've always been fine with previously.

I worked for a large company once where on being off sick, staff would be asked how they could prevent it happening again.

Ditto. A colleague was called in to be interviewed following her return from absence due to injuries sustained in an accident when a car mounted the pavement and knocked her over. Apparently she took great pleasure, when asked that question, in sitting back and saying "I have no idea, but I'd be delighted to hear your suggestions."

It's a very standard policy for most businesses. My work (large bank) is 3 in a rolling 6 months or 3% trigger. You'll then be invited to a hearing where you'll explain the reasons and anything you're doing to ensure recurring problems are treated. They may decide then to issue you with a verbal warning (these normally drop off your file quite quickly) or take no further action.

A plan may be agreed going forward. These policies really do exist to deal with people who take the piss op. Either they will fall back in line or be managed out of the door