To think that anti-vaxers may actually being onto something?

[viiz]

I don't have children myself yet but I don't know what I would chose when the time comes. Most of pro vax/anti vax threads turns nasty with people not even willing to try and look at things with others side perspective. Not willing to even consider points of view different than their own and that's a very silly approach. People believed a lot of things that turned out to be false over the years and centuries. Why not to doubt a little?

I was born in early '80s and not in UK. Myself, my siblings and friends were all vaccinated at the time. I don't even remember what I was vaccinated against but had to be pretty basic. Just a few jabs throughout my whole childhood/teen years and nothing 3in1 or 10in1 or whatever they'll bring next.

Now to the point. Reading through hundreds of threads it jumps at me how many children have neurological, behavioural or emotional disorders. No one else sees it really?? I don't know even one person from my childhood including friends, extended family , neighbours etc who would have ADS or ADHD or any other issues like that. I see their children to have it though.

AIBU to consider there could be a link here??

Please be gentle. I hope to have a discussion here. I don't disrespect anyone's views and I only ask to try and ask yourself 'what if'.

I think it's much more about poor food, parents struggling with the cost of living and working long hours, absent fathers fucking off and leaving single mothers to keep a roof over their heads, technology, lack of exercise, too much pressure in school because nowadays people who leave school with no qualifications end up in shit minimum wage jobs with poor terms and conditions.

None of these things cause autism.

I think the rise is largely due to the much greater understanding we have on these conditions now and in the past people were left undiagnosed.

There is no link with vaccinations as has been shown.

Several studies show that autism has a strong genetic component.

OP you have to get your head around the fact you can’t control whether or not your child is born with ASD. They don’t suddenly catch it from vaccines or the bogeyman. THEY ARE BORN WITH IT.

If you are insisting something must be to blame, you are best off pointing the finger at yours and your partners genes.

I have no axe to grind either way but isn't there a massive body of documented cases where DC have been considered by all (parents/health visitors/GP etc) to be fine. Reaching all normal milestones etc and then after getting the vaccine they just sort of fall away from that point. Is this still being documented?

Can anyone link to the study that proved the original study was wrong? I am interested in this as it is a subject raised now and again around me.

I suspect the issue is multifactorial. Genetic/food/helicopter parents/toxins in the environment/gut bacteria issues etc. I do believe there are more children now with problems. I know they used to be hidden away etc. but my gut feeling is that there are more with more problems and that there is a case to be answered. Vaccination may play a role in that case to be answered I feel.

viiz

No it wasn't aimed at you, sorry you felt that it was. I should have noted down the pp who DID say it though. It was much earlier on in the thread.
Apologies

This "just asking questions" crap is a known anti vaxxer tactic.

Besides, I find it strange how "there are so many vaccinations nowadays, in my childhood there were only 4" comes up. Isn't it wonderful that kids are not dying of HiB meningitis anymore because we now have a vaccine for it? Or pneumococcus pneumonia?

The reason vaccination threads get heated is because the anti-vaccine propaganda is dangerous and people are passionate about that.

There is an unending amount of scientific evidence to prove that vaccines are effective and there is not a single piece of evidence to say they cause asd or other disorders. Not.One!

So no, the ‘anti’ crew are not onto something.

It was MedSchoolRat who said it at 06.29 today.

There are always people who have strong reactions to things.
We won't stopping eating shellfish just because a very small number of people develop allergies.
Particularly when there are extrordinary health benefits to (not eating shellfish) vaccines.

I have no axe to grind either way but isn't there a massive body of documented cases where DC have been considered by all (parents/health visitors/GP etc) to be fine. Reaching all normal milestones etc and then after getting the vaccine they just sort of fall away from that point. Is this still being documented?

My cousin appeared completely neurotypical, was hitting all his milestones. No problems at all and then he regressed suddenly and that babbly baby vanished overnight. If that regression had occurred after vaccination we may have made that false connection but it happened before. Looking back we could see clues that he was different but at the time everything seemed typical.

I think you may be falling into one of the statistical 'traps' that plague the wider discussion around vaccination. Even though you state you're unaware of problems with friends, family etc you are still self-selecting a limited sample size looking back at what was then mostly an unrecognised issue so you're unlikely to have an accurate picture over that timescale.

Added to this you are then subjectively comparing your limited sample to a much wider sample but which may also be be self-selecting in that people are reporting the now recognised issues.

So you have a potential compound error which you then link, again subjectively, to an increase in reported disorders. I.e. At least 2 unsupported quasi- statistical links. This isn't evidence.

Reaching all normal milestones etc and then after getting the vaccine they just sort of fall away from that point. Is this still being documented?

Which vaccine are you talking about....the first set are at 8 weeks and there are vaccines periodically up to 3/4 years old?

If you are insisting something must be to blame, you are best off pointing the finger at yours and your partners genes.

And, it seems, your own gut bacteria.

www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/autism-could-be-linked-to-mothers-gut-microbiome/

The doctor who published that article in the Lancet about MMR being linked to autism was STRUCK OFF!
You are being very, very irresponsible and stupid to raise it as an issue, and you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself!

Also, the reduction in fish stocks and advances in computing, they also correlate over time. Killing fish makes PCs go faster!

Pirates! Don't forget the pirates, there were loads a few hundred years ago, if we bring back more pirates maybe the rates of autism will go down?

Both genes and environment may play a role.
As mentioned before FAS shares similar traits to autism. So not drinking during pregnancy is advised by the NHS.
Poor diet (but it has to be extremely poor) will affect brain development so will be an unlikely cause in the UK.
Sodium valproate can also cause autism and other neurological issues if the mother took it during pregnancy. And they may be other drugs taking while pregnant her cause as yet unknown problems.
But vaccinations have been shown not to be linked to autism and other neurological conditions.

Not willing to even consider points of view different than their own and that's a very silly approach.

This is not only a silly but stupid approach. This isn't a case of "points of view" but scientifically testable fact. I won't consider anyone's point of view unless it's publishable in a reputable scientific journal. I hate this modern idea that everyone's point of view is equally valid and we can't just admit that some people are experts and those that aren't should be ignored.

I don't want any of your non vaccinated children (with the obvious exceptions) in public.

Examples of spurious totally unrelated correlations.

www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

Fashion - about points of view
Medicine - about scientifically tested hypothesis.

See the difference?

taintfor gut feeling Vs advice from actual immunologists ....I know which one is more valid.

isn't there a massive body of documented cases where DC have been considered by all (parents/health visitors/GP etc) to be fine. Reaching all normal milestones etc and then after getting the vaccine they just sort of fall away from that point.

Which vaccine? I presume you're talking about the MMR when you say "the vaccine"?

• there is NO link between the MMR vaccine and autism. This has been proven over and over.

• the MMR vaccine is given at a time when children are going through one of many stages of rapid development. It is often at these stages that neurodevelopmental differences become apparent because the neurotypical children move off more work less in one direction while children who are neurologically different do not. I've always known something was different about DS and this became very apparent in toddlerhood, I've been forwarned that the approaching stage of development (teens) will wide that gap between him and his peers even further

• it is not uncommon for children with neurological disorders to regress or lose skills, again this is often around the same time as the MMR but is again coincidental

I suspect the issue is multifactorial. Genetic/food/helicopter parents/toxins in the environment/gut bacteria issues etc

Genetic, yes.

Poor diet, "toxins", parenting style, etc no.

Autism is a neurodevelopmental disorder. It is not caused by helicopter parenting and pizza.

There isn't a link. But even if there was, anti-vaxxers would rather their kids die from the things they would be vaccinated against than be autistic or have another such disorder.

There isn't a link. But even if there was, anti-vaxxers would rather their kids die from the things they would be vaccinated against than be autistic or have another such disorder.

Good point. Jehovah's Witnesses would rather their child die than be denied heaven by having a blood transfusion. I'd forgotten that. Parental responsibility and all that.