To think that anti-vaxers may actually being onto something?

[viiz]

I don't have children myself yet but I don't know what I would chose when the time comes. Most of pro vax/anti vax threads turns nasty with people not even willing to try and look at things with others side perspective. Not willing to even consider points of view different than their own and that's a very silly approach. People believed a lot of things that turned out to be false over the years and centuries. Why not to doubt a little?

I was born in early '80s and not in UK. Myself, my siblings and friends were all vaccinated at the time. I don't even remember what I was vaccinated against but had to be pretty basic. Just a few jabs throughout my whole childhood/teen years and nothing 3in1 or 10in1 or whatever they'll bring next.

Now to the point. Reading through hundreds of threads it jumps at me how many children have neurological, behavioural or emotional disorders. No one else sees it really?? I don't know even one person from my childhood including friends, extended family , neighbours etc who would have ADS or ADHD or any other issues like that. I see their children to have it though.

AIBU to consider there could be a link here??

Please be gentle. I hope to have a discussion here. I don't disrespect anyone's views and I only ask to try and ask yourself 'what if'.

Little wonder that the anti-vaxers I've spoken to (who were pro-vaccine before their kid was hurt) just put their head down and say nothing.

How do they know - as in proved, not believe - that their children were hurt by vaccination?

What does ‘hurt’ mean?

Vaccine damage is exceptionally rare. How many vaccine damaged children’s parents have you spoken to?

@KissingInTheRain how do you know it's rare?

Dutch1e because Pissingintherain is psychic
Vaccine reactions are not rare, but they are massively underreported

Vaccine reactions are not rare, but they are massively underreported

Good quality citation on both of the claims, please.

www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/11/02/underreporting-vaccine-adverse-events

www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.k1378/rr-10

www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j2449/rr-4

And a very interesting article from the bmj on the risk vs benefits of MMR over measles ...turns out MMR is more risky.. who knew

www.bmj.com/content/359/bmj.j5104/rapid-responses

@PhilomenaCunks just curious why you you're quick to ask for good quality citations on underreporting but not so quick to ask for good evidence to back up the claim that vaccine damage is "exceptionally rare"?

To be clear, I'm not pushing a barrow either way, only sharing the little insight I've gleaned from parents whose kids were vaccine-damaged. I still feel like these families are unnecessarily belittled/scorned and threads like this don't help very much.

@KissingInTheRain I haven't asked those questions to the people who shared their stories with me. Why would I grill someone that way? Is that how you speak to people in real life?

www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/11/02/underreporting-vaccine-adverse-events

This isn't actually much to do with either point, it's not claiming vaccine reactions are under-reported or that they're common. Nor do either of;

www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.k1378/rr-10
www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j2449/rr-4

It's worth noting that all of those links are responses, not actual studies or reports in their own right, and so aren't help to the same standards of an actual study or report, making them of lower quality of evidence.

www.bmj.com/content/359/bmj.j5104/rapid-responses

Is once again a response, not an article, citing their own research, and are making claims that contradict actual research (they cite the measles mortality rate at 0.01%, it's closer to 0.2 %
www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/meas.html#complications)

So, not exactly good quality evidence.

@PhilomenaCunks just curious why you you're quick to ask for good quality citations on underreporting but not so quick to ask for good evidence to back up the claim that vaccine damage is "exceptionally rare"?

I'm quicker to ask for good quality citations from Cathmidston, because they've got a history of making outlandish claims based on outlandish sources. As for the actual rates of vaccine evidence, there's better quality evidence to suggest they're not as common;

www.aafp.org/afp/2002/1201/p2113.html

Well, here’s a paper recording anaphylaxis rates for vaccination at 1.3 per million doses: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26452420/]

This link shows official stats of 11 payouts in the UK for the 9/10 years between 2007/8 and 2017: [https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/statistics_vaccine_damage_paymen]

(Apologies if the links don’t display as clicky.)

I can’t say what I would ask, Dutch. Unsurprisingly i’ve never met anyone claiming to have a vaccine damaged child. There are so few.

I don’t minimise the issue, by the way, for those so unfortunate to experience this. But in a discussion of a public health measure we should acknowledge that these cases are dwarfed by the number of children killed or disabled by the diseases, in countries where the diseases remain widespread.

Actually, I'm going to retract the statement about the first link,

www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/11/02/underreporting-vaccine-adverse-events

Does claim there's under-reporting for Kawasaki disease after vaccinations, though there's been studies on the subject that give evidence against a link;

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19319016

@Cathmidston

bangs head against brick wall

This explains so, so much.

Can I join this thread please?

So, this is to @Cathmidston: from what I understand, you are saying the HIV virus doesn't exist - do I have that right? Also AIDS doesn't exist?

(btw I do have to say here - HIV is a virus and AIDS is not a virus. AIDS is a collection of illnesses that someone might get several years after contracting HIV and not being on medication,during which their immune system gets so depleted that they eventually succumb to one or more of these illnesses and die)

Or so I thought that's the experts see it

So you are saying I've been lied to? That the illness I had 2 years ago - severe sickness for 2 weeks where I couldn't keep food or liquid dow, which I thought was seroconversion (ie the virus taking hold of my body)...wasn't? Was it just a bug?

So should I stop taking my meds? Those that I thought were keeping the virus suppressed so I can't pass it on to anyone? And I'll be fine, and anyone I have unprotected sex with will be fine too? I'm due to take mine (just the one) with supper very soon now...

Also - I always wanted to donate blood - I'm O neg so my blood can be given to anyone. Can I do that now? And as I have an organ donor card can my organs be used by anyone? Who would you trust enough to ensure that my blood or organs or ok to be used?

Really interested to hear your view on this

Just to add, I came across this last week (as I only read the most up to date articles from trusted sites). some quite interesting things in there that are regarded as a global threat

www.who.int/emergencies/ten-threats-to-global-health-in-2019

And many apologies if this has already been posted here or elsewhere - haven't actually RTFT - well not all of it!

Can I also add....(on a roll here, but I do need to have supper soooooon...) that we often see people post as what we call "AIDS denialists" . They are normally Russian, but also from other countries.

I saw a Youtube video of this very well looking woman last year. She was up in front of a conference - there were a lot of people - I think in the USA. She spoke so well. She sounded really believable. she said she had been poorly, had HIV diagnosed, went on medication, it went well but for some reason (perhaps because she felt so well) she then decided that she didn't have HIV. She stopped taking the medication. She felt so much better. she felt empowered and went on to talk about her experience in front of audiences like this one. A lot of people believed her. She sounded absolutely amazing.

She also died the following year - it was thought from an AIDS defining illness.

I don't know the link - but am happy to ask someone to help supply it if needed....these people are incredibly dangerous!

The contention is whether the collection of immune deficiency related illnesses (collectively diagnosed as AIDS when the supposed HIV virus is present) are caused by the HIV virus or whether it’s actually other factors that are involved.
I can’t possibly comment on your status as I don’t know your history, use of previous medications/drugs etc.
There are a myriad of scientists and researchers questioning this ...not just the ‘Russians’

The contention is whether the collection of immune deficiency related illnesses (collectively diagnosed as AIDS when the supposed HIV virus is present) are caused by the HIV virus or whether it’s actually other factors that are involved.

It's really not in contention, there's a plethora of evidence for HIV-AIDS from reputable, good quality sources, and some crackpots who are have unsubstantiated hypotheses on the topic.

Just wanted to say in regards to the pertussis vaccine, that it has very little effectiveness. My Dr actually told me it's 'not the best, but it's all we have'. One major concern with whooping cough is that people use the vaccine as a false security instead of using common sense and steering clear of others when ill. Another issue is a lack of adequate testing for the illness, leaving people unaware and able to spread it further.

I say this because in my country a woman pushed hard and heavy for mandatory pertussis vaccinations after her newborn contracted the illness and passed away. The proposed policy was passed, despite the ineffectiveness of the vaccine/testing and treatment. So it does make me wonder what the end goal is when those important factors aren't even glossed over, but completely omitted when talking about how great vaccines are. Not ALL vaccines are great, some are useless and a lot of people believe that once they've had one they don't have to worry about illnesses that can be spread person to person, which is huge concern on its own.

Ignoring things like effectiveness or being completely unaware because vaccines are THE most amazing medicine in the world and can never be questioned is dangerous, as in the case of pertussis, which if not picked up on can be spread to babies and the elderly and be potentially fatal.

Cath’s gone the whole bag of nuts.

Cathmidston you are just so unbearably stupid. I don’t even care if this comment gets deleted, I have to say it.

Oh, how much do I second that assessment of Cath’s deeply regrettable comments, Heronymous.

@Cathmidston quite happy to tell you my history - use of previous medications...in the last 30 years or so (though could go back further) - sinus medication ( Avamys and Nasonex), antibiotics - about twice due to infected sinuses plus more recently due to infected tooth. Tetanus shot (I do a lot of gardening).

Since my diagnosis...I can list the HIV meds I take/have taken. Plus had flu jab twice and Hep A&B jabs.

I can also list all the childhood vaccinations I had, and what antibodies showed up after my HIV diagnosis like CMV.

So...should I stop my meds? Since HIV doesn’t, according to you, exist?

Farewell anti-vaxxers. You had your arses handed to you.