To think that anti-vaxers may actually being onto something?

[viiz]

I don't have children myself yet but I don't know what I would chose when the time comes. Most of pro vax/anti vax threads turns nasty with people not even willing to try and look at things with others side perspective. Not willing to even consider points of view different than their own and that's a very silly approach. People believed a lot of things that turned out to be false over the years and centuries. Why not to doubt a little?

I was born in early '80s and not in UK. Myself, my siblings and friends were all vaccinated at the time. I don't even remember what I was vaccinated against but had to be pretty basic. Just a few jabs throughout my whole childhood/teen years and nothing 3in1 or 10in1 or whatever they'll bring next.

Now to the point. Reading through hundreds of threads it jumps at me how many children have neurological, behavioural or emotional disorders. No one else sees it really?? I don't know even one person from my childhood including friends, extended family , neighbours etc who would have ADS or ADHD or any other issues like that. I see their children to have it though.

AIBU to consider there could be a link here??

Please be gentle. I hope to have a discussion here. I don't disrespect anyone's views and I only ask to try and ask yourself 'what if'.

Yes except for the annoying fact that significantly more aluminium has been found in the brains of people diagnosed with both autism and dementia compared with ‘normal’ autopsies

However the fact is that neurological Illnesses are on the rise particularly Alzheimer’s...and no one has any answers.. so to dismiss aluminium when there are numerous studies that do show a link is pretty foolhardy...

There are no reliable numerous studies.

And you can't put autism and Alzheimers in the same category.

You can certainly do whatever stupid thing you want to.

The problem is that too many people are doing the same stupid thing and preventable dangerous childhood diseases are becoming a problem again.

By all means drive too fast and too dangerously. You're just putting your life and others at risk.

With vaccines it's worse, because it's their children's lives at risk.

So we should avoid Alzheimer's or autism by dying of measles, or diptheria or typhoid? Sounds like a plan.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0946672X17308763

Barbarianmum I suggest you research the decline of these diseases before the mass vaccination programs started. Due mainly to the increase in living standards, sanitation and food

That resesrch again links to Shaw and Tomljenovic numerous times. The research on aluminium in the brain was retracted

‘In 2013, there were 42,325 people with early-onset dementia (onset before the age of 65 years) in the UK. This higher figure corrects an underestimate in the 2007 Dementia UK report.’

Vs no deaths due to measles ... I think I know which one I’d be more worried about

Yes I'm aware. And Ive seen a full blown measles epidemic. If we stop vaccinating it will happen here. Personally I'll take the "risk" of vaccine for me and mine.

Bruffin just because your pharmaceutical industry funded study debunked theirs doesn’t make it right

A full blown measles epidemic? Really?

They not study I can find on alluminium and ASD was funded by the Children’s Medical Safety Research Institute, a known supporter of the anti-vaxx idiots movement. It used tissues samples from ten people, veey tellingly included no medical or lifestyle history which may have impacted on findings, also very tellingly contained no control data, and the levels found were variable with no consistent benchmark. It's a flawed "study" (if ten people can be called that), funded by an organisation with an agenda, and carried out by people with the same agenda.

The Alzheimer's Society does not mention alluminium anywhere in their information about risk factors:

www.alzheimers.org.uk/about-dementia/risk-factors-and-prevention?documentID=102

Other studies have found no link:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17525096

Alluminium is the new thimerosal but, sadly for anti-vaxxers, is also a bullshit theory based on nothing.

Yes except for the annoying fact that significantly more aluminium has been found in the brains of people diagnosed with both autism and dementia compared with ‘normal’ autopsies

Let's admit it's true...
Also ignore the fact that aluminium isn't much used in vaccines.
And the amounts were tiny.
And how would that affect people dead in their old age? And if those amounts were there, surely the presence in Alzheimer’s would demonstrate a different source of aluminium.
And the conditions are quite different.

In 2013, there were 42,325 people with early-onset dementia (onset before the age of 65 years) in the UK. This higher figure corrects an underestimate in the 2007 Dementia UK report.

But early onset Alzheimer's is genetic. How can you even be trying to find some spurious environmental link when it is due to genes?

There's also been a big rise in obesity and that has a definite link to certain types of dementia...

Maybe obesity is caused by vaccines.

the utter naivety if this blind faith in “science” sounds equally crazy to me. When did we stop questioning anything?!

You clearly haven't ever been in a scientific meeting.
The discussions about whether to vaccinate with BCG or not, for example, are quite interesting.
Lots of research about it.
No member of the public questions science more than scientists themselves.
Each paper goes through a peer filter. And anyone can dispute the findings in very public ways. Loads of people try to verify results in different populations.
And it's often other scientists who decide if your project merits funding or not. It's called expert panels.
For all the problems and faults, yes, I trust my colleagues as a group than conspiracy theorists who can barely understand what an antibody is.

You clearly don't understand science anymore than vaccones.

Bruffin just because your pharmaceutical industry funded study debunked theirs doesn’t make it right
i haveny linked to "pharmaceutical industry funded study"
However as I said above the paper you linked to has been retracted.

for the following reasons from my link

"Based on the methods that were used in this paper, Shaw et al. went too far in declaring that aluminum adjuvants cause autism. But there are six other key points that limit what conclusions can be drawn from this paper:

1. They selected genes based on old literature and ignored newer publications.
2. The method for PCR quantification is imprecise and cannot be used as an absolute quantification of expression of the selected genes.
3. They used inappropriate statistical tests that are more prone to giving significant results which is possibly why they were selected.
4. Their dosing regime for the mice makes assumptions on the development of mice that are not correct.
5. They gave the mice far more aluminum sooner than the vaccine schedule exposes children to.
6. There are irregularities in both the semi-quantitative RT-PCR and Western blot data that strongly suggests that these images were fabricated. This is probably the most damning thing about the paper. If the data were manipulated and images fabricated, then the paper needs to be retracted and UBC needs to do an investigation into research misconduct by the Shaw lab."

ilikesciene - actually, dementia is very rarely passed on genetically. It has stronger links to lifestyle and environment.

Early onset Alzheimer's is genetic. Sporadic Alzheimer's, definitely not but Cathmidston was talking about early onset

The majority of dementia is not inherited by children and grandchildren. In rarer types of dementia there may be a strong genetic link, but these are only a tiny proportion of overall cases of dementia.

ilikesciene - actually, dementia is very rarely passed on genetically. It has stronger links to lifestyle and environment.
Early onset dementia...
As early onset breast cancer, has a strong genetic component. But the component is probably more of susceptibility not deterministic, unlike Huntington's.

Yes, missed the early onset bit. My mistake. Worries me because my lifestyle could definitely do with some positive changes :-/

Cathmidston

‘In 2013, there were 42,325 people with early-onset dementia (onset before the age of 65 years) in the UK. This higher figure corrects an underestimate in the 2007 Dementia UK report.’

(Vs no deaths due to measles ... I think I know which one I’d be more worried about

Still measles. Deaths have occurred in other years.
And as pointed out early onset dementia is most likely a genetic risk.

It's interesting that survival in old age has strayed more or less stable, but childhood deaths have reduced significantly with vaccines.
I know which I prefer...

Cathmidston Then don't use the 'tiny proportion' (which is 5-10%) to justify there is an increase in a condition, when that increase is entirely in the genetic form of the disease!

Alzheimer’s including early onset is rising exponentially .... and that kind of increase simply can’t be attributed to genetics

The bottom line is we have very differing views on what constitutes good health choices and risk.
Me refusing to allow you to vaccinate your children is as abhorrent to you as you thinking you can force me to vaccinate mine is to me.