To think that anti-vaxers may actually being onto something?

[viiz]

I don't have children myself yet but I don't know what I would chose when the time comes. Most of pro vax/anti vax threads turns nasty with people not even willing to try and look at things with others side perspective. Not willing to even consider points of view different than their own and that's a very silly approach. People believed a lot of things that turned out to be false over the years and centuries. Why not to doubt a little?

I was born in early '80s and not in UK. Myself, my siblings and friends were all vaccinated at the time. I don't even remember what I was vaccinated against but had to be pretty basic. Just a few jabs throughout my whole childhood/teen years and nothing 3in1 or 10in1 or whatever they'll bring next.

Now to the point. Reading through hundreds of threads it jumps at me how many children have neurological, behavioural or emotional disorders. No one else sees it really?? I don't know even one person from my childhood including friends, extended family , neighbours etc who would have ADS or ADHD or any other issues like that. I see their children to have it though.

AIBU to consider there could be a link here??

Please be gentle. I hope to have a discussion here. I don't disrespect anyone's views and I only ask to try and ask yourself 'what if'.

*may actually be

I think you’re right that there is a massive rise in children with disorders, and you’re possibly right, although it could be down to all kinds of things such as genetically modified food or use of pesticides. I’m not a scientist so that’s just guessing.

I think there’s also just more awareness of conditions these days. My dd has ASD, and when I look back at my own childhood it pretty much mirrored hers, except that I never received any diagnosis, understanding or support, and just got on with being very unhappy and being a bit ‘weird’.

There is no medical evidence of any link and lots of research has been done. Think about the life style children now are growing up with compared to when you were a child- the increase in use of technology to parent for example has a huge impact on behaviour. There have always been children on the spectrum for example but previously they wouldn't have been in a mainstream school so you might never have come across them...

Nah it's all bollocks.

And the reason it gets heated is because children die because of this brand of bollocks.

Even if you were right, and you're wrong, ADHD is a tiny price to pay to not have polio. I say that as the mother of a child with fairly severe ADHD. Vaccinated but had it before that.

It's an interesting subject and you're broadly right about the rates of diagnosis etc. That said, I don't believe there is a link between vaccinations and the 'development' of conditions/disorders etc. I think we have got better at diagnosing things and knowing how to support children than we used to be. In other words, the disorders were always there, they just weren't recognised.

I was born in the 80s and I can remember two or three children I went to school with who very likely would've been diagnosed with some form of ASD but it wasn't looked at back then the same way it is now and sadly they were just seen as the naughty children.

There is not a massive rise in children with disorders, there is a massive rise in successful ability to diagnose disorders.

As to “people believed lists of things over the centuries that turned out to be false” - that would only really apply to anti-vacation beliefs, and actually strengthens the case for vaccinations. Anti-vaxers believe with no tangible proof or evidence that vaccinations are Bad. This has already been proven to be false, it’s just taking a long time for the idiots to cotton on.

Here is the difference. Anti-vaxers have ‘beliefs’. The dictionary definition of belief is “an exceptance that something exists or is true, without proof”. Science, on the other hand, will have a hypothesis - a theory that is the most likely correct solution, and will then test and expand this theory, or change it altogether, based on the evidence. Once the evidence proves the hypothesis beyond a doubt, it becomes fact. It had never been proven that vaccines cause any of the myriad disorders that anti-vaxers heal on them. It has, on the other hand, been proven that vaccinations are the single most efficient way of preventing death from disease. History has proven this to be true time and again. It’s not possible for that much proof to be wrong - the evidence that vaccination works is irrefutable.

Is that something crack?

Because smoking crack is the only excuse for this dangerous nonsense

Sorry I don’t believe anything you are suggesting. I’m not convinced there has been a huge rise in adhd, etc. I think as a society we are more open with these types of issues and in years gone by, many of these children would have been put into a mental health institution until well into adulthood. Clearly that doesn’t happen anymore, everyone is out in the community. The whole anti-bad debate began with a paper written by a dodgy Dr who it was proved had made up all his research and has now been thrown out of the medical profession. I can’t fathom why people are still going on about this “research”. It was utter lies.

I have two DC with asd and the elder one has ADD too. I don't believe the incidence of autism and ADD/ADHD has anything to do with vaccinations.

What I would like to see researched is the link between families that previously interbred (marriages to first cousins) and diets lower in omega 3 oils. If you look at traditional British schooling of highly structured school days, lots of sport (2+ hours a day of team sports, small class sizes and academically challenging curriculum is exactly what the doctors prescribe today for high functioning autism. Funny that! Except it isn't funny when you see thousands of children not getting this and knowing they would thrive in this environment.

The low functioning autistic spectrum is seen more today because I think previously these children were hidden. It was seen as a curse and many didn't make it past the age of 5, let alone 2, especially if they had feeding issues.

No, I don't believe they are on onto something at all.

The prevalent view appears to be that the bulk of the increase is due to better diagnosis and a change in the definition of autism.

There are some other factors that might be contributing to the increase - children with older parents (particularity fathers) and those born prematurely are more likely to develop autism. There are trends whereby more people wait longer to have children now, and survival rates amongst premature children are far better than they were.

Given the amount of research into it, and that there is good quality evidence that ASD is actually more prevalent among unvaccinated children, vaccines seem to be pretty conclusively ruled out as a cause.

Millions of people receive vaccines every year which prove to be perfectly safe (as far as anybody can know) and then do not go on to develop the illness which the vaccine is intended to prevent - and the overall prevalence of those illnesses declines massively on a population level, which is obviously a hugely beneficial thing.

However, not everybody will physically react in exactly the same way to the same vaccine, even if the vast majority will.

Indeed, plenty of drugs have been prescribed to men and women alike having initially only ever been trialled - and found to be beneficial (and not harmful save for the odd minor side-effect) - exclusively on male subjects.

I don't know if this was the case with Thalidomide, or whether it was just a time-lapse/hindsight/scientists-are-only-human issue.

However, it is scientifically impossibly to categorically state that EVERY vaccine or other drug is completely safe for EVERY single person, no matter how many people (medical professionals and lay-people alike) insist that they can be guaranteed 100% safe and free of any possible side-effects in every single conceivable case.

You are creating a link where one doesn't exist. There are more diagnoses, not necessarily more cases. Just because something appears to have increased doesn't, without scientific evidence, prove that it correlates with the increase in vaccinations. It makes about as much sense as linking it to the increase in mobile phone use.

I agree with MrsTerryPratchett. People don’t realise that it wasn’t the odd child here and there that used to die of smallpox etc, when it got into a community swathes of children would be wiped out. Even if there is a link, and I’m unconvinced that there is one, it is so much better than the alternative.

But if there is a link, then it would make the case of anti-vaxxers even more unreasonable, because those who vaccinate their child would be putting their child ‘at risk’ not just for their own child’s welfare, but for the benefit of wider society. Why should some people opt out of that?

If too few people get vaccinated then these diseases will come back and children who can’t receive vaccines due to medical reasons, or because their parents chose not to, will die.

We’ve had the luxury in this part of the world to not know what it’s like to lose a sizeable amount of children every year from contagious diseases. That’s because of vaccination, one of the the most beneficial medical innovations in history, has saved hundreds of thousands of lives since the 1800s. Rowing back on that progress voluntarily is sheer madness.

Not willing to even consider points of view different than their own and that's a very silly approach.

Whether vaccines cause ASD is not “a point of view”. They don’t. Some things aren’t a matter of opinion, like the shape of the Earth, the definition of woman, the speed of light etc. They are facts. Vaccines don’t cause ASD. It’s in the same category. So the “debate” is why people are willing to risk the lives of children for the sake of a lie. The differing points of view are about why people fall for bullshit when others don’t. Why are people scientifically illiterate? There are lots of different points of view on those arguments, but not on whether vaccines cause ASD or not, because they don’t.

There has been so much research into this because it’s such a contentious issue. No study has proved a link (except the original, famous, widely discredited one) so personally I don’t believe there is one.

However, I agree with you that the incidence of these conditions is rising and I don’t believe it’s entirely due to better diagnostic capability. I think there are some external factors going on that we haven’t understood yet. But it must be something that hasn’t been researched yet, as if it was vaccinations then the research would have found a link.

However, it is scientifically impossibly to categorically state that EVERY vaccine or other drug is completely safe for EVERY single person,

Of course it is, which is why scientists don't say that. Statistically, it's vastly safer than the alternative.

Re. 'Not willing to even consider different points of view is a very silly approach' - the suggested link has been considered, rigorously researched and comprehensively debunked.

I really don't know how anti vaxers manage to mentally get around the fact that vaccinated children are not statistically more likely to be diagnosed autistic than their unvaccinated peers (without resorting to conspiracy theories about Big Pharma trying to turn us all autistic because money or something).

However, it is scientifically impossibly to categorically state that EVERY vaccine or other drug is completely safe for EVERY single person, no matter how many people (medical professionals and lay-people alike) insist that they can be guaranteed 100% safe and free of any possible side-effects in every single conceivable case.
Of course, which is why no one claims that. In rare cases, vaccines can cause adverse reactions and, in rarer cases, long term injury. Not ASD though.

Wtf?!! Are we all ignoring Want2B’s comment about interbreeding?! Ok!

There is no link.

I can remember when I was young, over 50 years ago, there were a few kids at school who were shipped off at to ‘special schools’ due to behavioural issues. Unfortunately these ‘special’ schools also had kids with physical disabilities such as cerebral palsy, kids with birth defect such as missing limb, but they were all lumped together and classed as ‘retarded’ and not really taught anything, just babysat for the day. The ‘special’ school in our area actually had the word retarded as part of the name but as I said it was a long time ago.

One child from primary school and one child who lived in my street were sent to institutions as children once their behaviours became extremely problematic after starting school and not being able to cope/fit the mould. Back then the only form of autism recognised was low functioning and then it was off to an institution. Same with kids with Downs Syndrome. Some kids coped when little but the differences and inability to cope only became obvious after starting school, then they ‘disappeared’. It was okay though as their parents went to visit then once a week or fortnight on the weekend.

Then there were the people such as one of my siblings. Sooooo naughty. Just that, naughty. Labelled as naughty. Got the belt at home constantly and the cane at school constantly. While smart enough they pretty much failed everything in school so even more trouble as they were obviously not trying/mucking around. Today it would be obvious to the blind they had/have ADHD along with a raft of other issues.

This was all before most of the vaccinations we have now. You were probably just a little more lucky (nothing more or less) in the people immediately surrounding you plus you probably missed a lot of things as a child in regards to issues as where possible behavioural issues were swept under the rug where possible and very hush hush. So the kid sitting next to you in school who was a ‘normal, typical’ model student probably went home everyday and had absolute meltdowns after holding it together all day at school but it was hardly something the parents would broadcast so you would never know. Now it’s talked about and measures are put in place for the student to alleviate stresses at school so this does not occur.

Again, no link between behavioural issues and vaccinations.

However, I agree with you that the incidence of these conditions is rising and I don’t believe it’s entirely due to better diagnostic capability. I think there are some external factors going on that we haven’t understood yet.

There are some hypotheses. However they relate to things such as increasing maternal age, assisted reproductive technologies etc. Delving into any of that would be a minefield as it essentially leads to a blame game no one wants to play so understandably no one is keen to go there.

I have 3 children. All vaccinated. Oldest has ADHD and ASD. Youngest two are neurotypical.

I am 100% for vaccines and my DP's job is part of testing vaccines.

That said, I think the main "reasoning" that people chose not to vaccinate is fear.

Vaccines are, on the whole, safe. But still some children can and do, terribly, die as a reaction to a vaccine. It's extremely rare but it does happen. And to some parents or carers, that fear of "what if?" is what stops them. As much as vaccines stop illnesses, putting it into a child may have an awful consequence.

Let's say you have a huge, paralysing fear of spiders and someone asked you to let them cover your child in huge spiders because it would help them. Would you do it without question?

That's why, as much as I am pro-vaccinating, and believe they are fantastic, I understand that parents/carers are scared and that fear is hard to overcome. Of course, I think you should still vaccinate. I'm just saying, I get why people are scared.

As for the ASD/ADHD argument. Complete codswollop, but even if it wasn't, would you rather have a child with special needs or a dead/paralysed/deaf/amputee/blind one because of a choice you made?

albert Why wtf? I know my family history and the uncomfortable truth is that there were quite a few first cousins being married off to each other and having babies. This practice in my family stopped two generations prior to my parents in part because of the issues with genetics. I'm not aware of any research into this area of autism. They identified a gene sequencing resulting in a higher rate of autism but that is as far as they have gotten.

I'm in the NYC area and the vast majority of diagnosed DC are white males, but I've noticed that a lot of this group of white boys are Hispanic in terms of origin but not ethnicity as they are the great grandchildren of Caucasians who left mainland Europe after WW2. There is a bias in the diagnosis, with the African American population very underrepresented, with it much more normal for those DC to be referred to as naughty, much in the same way white boys diagnosed today were treated the same was 30+ years ago.

The other piece of research not often shared with parents is that extending the pregnancy beyond 42 weeks results in a higher incidence of developmental issues.

I just don't see and research which backs up the link between Vaccinations and autism or ADD/ADHD.

However, it is scientifically impossibly to categorically state that EVERY vaccine or other drug is completely safe for EVERY single person, no matter how many people (medical professionals and lay-people alike) insist that they can be guaranteed 100% safe and free of any possible side-effects in every single conceivable case.

Uhhhmm, yes. That’s why no one would ever claim them to be 100% safe for every individual. Just like no one claims it is 100% safe for every individual to cross a road, travel in a car, train, bus, plane etc.

It works on a benefit risk profile where benefit has been proven to be far greater than risk for the vast majority of the population.

To give an analogy. A few years back we had a terrorist walk into a cafe and take the patrons hostage. Eventually, most escaped, the terrorist started firing and the tactical response group stormed in and unfortunately it all resulted in the death a few people. This does not mean cafes are unsafe. It does not mean cafes should be shut down. It was an unfortunate unforeseen event and on a risk/benefit approach there is in general no issue with people going to cafes. Can anyone guarantee 100% for all individuals that such a thing will never occur again. Nope, but the risk is low as opposed to the benefits of being able to visit a cafe and get a cup of coffee. Exactly the same principle for vaccines.