To think that anti-vaxers may actually being onto something?

[viiz]

I don't have children myself yet but I don't know what I would chose when the time comes. Most of pro vax/anti vax threads turns nasty with people not even willing to try and look at things with others side perspective. Not willing to even consider points of view different than their own and that's a very silly approach. People believed a lot of things that turned out to be false over the years and centuries. Why not to doubt a little?

I was born in early '80s and not in UK. Myself, my siblings and friends were all vaccinated at the time. I don't even remember what I was vaccinated against but had to be pretty basic. Just a few jabs throughout my whole childhood/teen years and nothing 3in1 or 10in1 or whatever they'll bring next.

Now to the point. Reading through hundreds of threads it jumps at me how many children have neurological, behavioural or emotional disorders. No one else sees it really?? I don't know even one person from my childhood including friends, extended family , neighbours etc who would have ADS or ADHD or any other issues like that. I see their children to have it though.

AIBU to consider there could be a link here??

Please be gentle. I hope to have a discussion here. I don't disrespect anyone's views and I only ask to try and ask yourself 'what if'.

Also this is a really interesting article (chuckled at the MN comment too).
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/25/anti-vaxxers-social-media-vaccine-climate-change

In fact, there has been a LOT of talk about it recently. Google anti-vaxxers and hit the news tab, lots of interesting pieces from both sides.

ds has been diagnosed with asd. He has two uncles on my side and a grandfather that were never diagnosed but who are on the spectrum.

two of my school friends were diagnosed with asd as adults.

Diagnosis has improved. And as the info trickles down to GPs and HVs they don’t dismiss parents concerns and knock them at the first hurdle. And as more dc get diagnosed and the school system is forced to accommodate special needs, it becomes more mainstream and less scary. So more parents push for diagnoses to help their children instead of burying their heads in sand or feeling helpless or ashamed.

Statistically it looks like a steady rise in the incidence of asd but if you look at the full picture it’s a sociological trend rather than a physiological one.

Hope that makes sense.

@gamerchick Actually there should be at least some info with this photo as to where it was taken, who were the children, what did they suffer from etc. Like this it's just used by someone to prove their point but we don't even know if it had anything to do with autism at all!

I understand what you're getting at though. I used to have one boy in my class who was more challenged and 'slower' than the rest of kinds. Nothing to do with autism though and still happily living with his family and going to regular school. I honestly hope that places like the one from your photo were few and long gone.

Why do you think the rise in the conditions you mentioned is due to vaccines and not other things like pesticides, food additives (remember the oh-so-safe BPA, found in all babies' bottles?), ultrasounds during pregnancy, radiation from mobile phones?
Why pick out vaccines? Genuine question. I always ask this and never get an answer.

For example: It has been recently found that the increase in childhood leukaemia is down to excessive hygiene (basically, the way westerners live).

@LadyLaStack

This is the crux of it. What makes you think your uneducated (in this field) and unscientific musings are in any way relevant or valuable?

Nothing makes me think that. What makes you think that your input is relevant enough to press Post button?

Researchers claim that autism does not occur in non vaccinated communities and use Amish as an example.

What research? Also, children in the Amish community are less likely to be diagnosed this does not mean they don't have it.

As for infant mortality in the USA I understand that is linked to poor access
to prenatal care for people without insurance or without more comprehensive cover.

No matter how good our medical care and hygiene is in this country we still get measles outbreaks and it is thought we will have an epidemic again. Children will die or be disabled due to antivax rhetoric.

Also, thimerosal is not in any of the UK childhood vaccines.

@BestBeforeYesterday

I actually love this point! I’ve never even considered that, as I’m sure very few die-hard AVs have either. After all, everything has changed so drastically in the last few decades, it could literally be anything.

Thank you and yoink - stealing your argument for my next AV discussion haha

FWIW I don't think the rise in ASCs is only down to diagnostic improvement. I have a family member who has worked in a special school their whole working life. She says in the 1980s the children in the school had a big variety (for want of a better word) of disabilities, most had both learning and physical disabilities. Nowadays all her pupils have autism and there are only a couple in the whole (small, primary) school that don't. These children would not have been in mainstream school in the 80s either.

I know this is a relatively long video but British host John Oliver talks about vaccines. They do a lot of research for their show.

My Dad's brother died of polio as a newborn unvaccinated child in the 1940s.

We could post quotes from literally hundreds of scientists & doctors who disagree but does it matter? Nowadays people just believe what they want to believe. It's comforting to believe in Evil Big Pharma because it means SOMEONE is in charge & we aren't all vulnerable to crazy random bad things under no one's control. That emotional need trumps any line of evidence.

I could state a suspicion that OP is a Russian troll, with an articulate multi-faceted line of evidence to support my argument. Complete with references & a (well evidenced!) narrative about Russians trying to undermine western institutions. It wouldn't be hard to find at least a few other posters to agree with me & produce their own lines of evidence. Wouldn't make my accusation in the slightest bit true.

Snopes page about No autism in the Amish (False).

Walker-Smith was struck off for doing unnecessary medical procedures in children (he successfully appealed). Not for his anti-vaccine views.

Maria Dorota Majewska's claims are based on Two rodent brain experiments using thimerosol. How is autism diagnosed in rats, does anyone know?

Someone else can hunt around to figure out which (routine child) UK vaccines contain thimerosol nowadays.

Maria Dorota Majewska seems like an interesting character! From her Polish Wikipedia page:

M. Majewska preaches at lectures views that vaccines reduce intelligence, and that heavy metals are used to produce them [8] [9] , as well as "sewage from industrial waste" [10] . The reason for the defeats of the Polish football team at the 2018 World Cup in Russia was also the "biological mutilation of the players with vaccines"

My son had his 1 year jabs on Wednesday, 4 separate injections containing Hib, meningitis C, Pneumoccoccal, meningitis B and MMR. He's been a bit under the weather since with a high temperature.
I don't think they cause autism, ADHD etc but I do think the schedule is a bit much and it might be better to space them out a bit. 4 different jabs is a lot at once for a little body to deal with.

I'm fatter than I was 10 years ago. I do far more exercise than I did 10 years ago. Am I right to day that exercise causes obesity? Or, in your words, should i be suspicious of exercise? There's no link. My weight gain has been for a variety of reasons, including my age, stress, and my love of cheese and crisps! variety

I have a DS with ASD and LD. It has recently been found that this is due to an extremely rare genetic mutation. The current huge advances in genetic research are finding more and more underlying causes like this. I suspect that genetic mutations underlie a large proportion of ASD, ADHD, LD diagnoses.

I do love how often Thimersol is quoted as a reason not to vaccinate by people who have "done their research." That alone shows that their research is useless as if they had properly researched they would know it is not in any of our childhood vaccines in the UK.

I think it’s multifactorial. I think the plethora of vaccines, less breastfeeding, toxins everywhere, damaged guts from incredibly poor diets and inactivity are leading to these issues plus autoimmunity, cancers and depression. Anxiety - this is in epidemic numbers now where I live in school kids.

I don’t think it’s just one thing.

Trouble is, you can’t research this way. And you won’t find a group of unvaccinated kids to do proper research either.

You can't directly link the health issues to vaccines. There are a multitude of things that these health issues could correlate to but you've just picked what is the crash pick even though all current research says otherwise.

As a pp has said our lifestyle are completely different to the 80s snd previous to that. Many issues would have also be seen as 'a naughty child'

Post like these are ones that the anti community cling on to

Did you not see that WHO have add anti vaccine to the risk to humanity.

Facebook and YouTube are listed as a platform where fake information is banded around but Mumsnet clearly needs to be included.

Pharmaceutical companies are powerful enough to make public believe in what is the most profitable to them. They are powerful enough to discredit whatever is not.

If you believe this then I assume you take no drugs at all made by the industry and you would refuse any for any condition, life threatening or not because surely they would be just trying to get money out of you without any benefit. After all lots of cancer drugs are very very expensive.

Yes? Or is it just vaccinations and only vaccinations that are the issue .

I assume most anti vaxxers are too young to comprehend or recall just how damaging are the illnesses immunised against. Let's bring back smallpox. Polio anyone? TB? There is no valid argument against protection and to refuse it for your children is an anti social act which endangers the community.

Your Right Op death or a severe physical disability is a much better option.

I got mumps. It was only then that I discovered I hadn't had the MMR (thanks mum)

So instead I ended up in hospital because my mumps somehow turned into something worse and I nearly died. The even more twatty thing was because my siblings (boys) hadn't had it my mum tried to lock me in my room when I first got it !! Lock a 16 year old in their room !! It was because if boys get mumps they can become infertile. My mum actually screamed at me how selfish I was when I tried to leave!!

Yes mum you're right. This was totally my fault. Fucking hell its well my fault I got a totally preventable illness.

I left and went to my mates and thank fuck I did tbh because I needed hospital treatment in the end.

After that my mum took all of us for the vaccines.

Anti vaxers are twats ( yes mum I mean you )

OP you are an anti-vaxxer. You are a classic anti-vaxxer, trying to spread doubt and fear because that’s effective. It’s dangerous and it’s hugely unethical. Children will die because of people saying what you are saying. And effectively what you are saying is “better dead than autistic”, on a board where you recognize that many parents have children with special needs. Charming.

You know what else was lower in 1980s than today? Yes, the number of vaccines received but also - breastfeeding, car seat usage, duration of maternity leave, theories of attachment parenting, veganism, availability of and preference for organic foods, pregnancy yoga classes, education rates for women, salary rates for women, low cost airlines, tumble dryers.... So why not ask if antenatal yoga causes ADHD? If breastfeeding makes babies autistic? Because unlike vaccines, there are zero scientific studies debunking these links, so I guess they must be true, huh? Or at least plausible enough that I should avoid tumble dryers and eat only white bread and processed food, for fear of special needs. Ridiculous.

You have no argument. Thalidomide was a failure of regulation. US regulators identified problems in the data and didn’t did not allow it enter the US market. Once the damage it caused was so apparent, it was withdrawn instantly. Regulation has massively improved since. Why would vaccines be different? That you can only name one such drug in 70 years is surely indicative of things being largely done right. Talking of the preservatives in vaccines, and then bemoaning the combining of vaccines into one injection also makes no sense. If you worry about preservatives, then a single injection is better than several separate ones all of which require the same additives/preservatives.

What is the objective of this thread? I doubt that you are open to persuasion so all your replies have dismissed the excellent arguments in favour of vaccination. You are an anti-Vax conspiracy theorist and you are putting babies and children at risk of serious illness and death. Well done you.

@Zoflorabore

Thank you for your input. Your family history gives an interesting view to the genetic explanation of autism.

Anti Vaxxers are idiots. Some think that death is better then autism. They aren't on to anything. If you don't vaccinate you are putting a child at risk of death or infertility Some kids can't be vaccinated due to autoimmune diseases.

I was born in the early 80’s too. I was one of the first to have the mmr. I also had a bcg and polio, think that was a sugar cube. Very odd!

I don’t think my children have had much more than I did tbh. I know what you mean though there seems to be a lot more adhd/ autism now. Probably just more awareness.

I think it gets heated because antivaxers put others in danger for what seems like no reason at all.

I never gave my two the flu one FYI.

Notice how back in the day we didn't have smartphones? I bet you could draw a graph where the use of smartphones and autism correlates. SMARTPHONES CAUSE AUTISM PEOPLE.

Also, the reduction in fish stocks and advances in computing, they also correlate over time. Killing fish makes PCs go faster!

Etc.

When debating facts then I see no need to give any more weight to anti vax opinions than to flat earthers or literal 6 day creationists who argue dinosaur bones were planted.
People are entitled to their opinions. They are not entitled to the world giving undue weight to them and placing them on a level with the current evidence based science.