To ask if private school is worth it?

[Secondaryschooldilemma]

Regular poster name changed for this post as it may be outing, I have talked to a lot of people IRL about this today.

My DD11 has today been accepted for a place at a brilliant private school. However, we applied for a bursary and were unsuccessful as other girls did better in the exam and there is only a small amount of money to go around. We have been offered a fee paying place at approximately £1,100 per month. We don't have a huge household income, we bring home around £4k a month between us and our outgoings are around £2400. That includes everything except holidays and fun stuff. Some months are better, some are worse. We have looked at where we can make savings without sacrificing our quality of life and I think we could manage it. I am self employed and could theoretically bring this in as extra a month if I work hard and market my business more. We also have six months before she starts to start putting money away so we can have a bit of a cushion to start with.

We currently rent and have no savings or assets which would be a reason for not spending 12k a year on school fees. This could be saved and used towards a house deposit giving us all more security as a family. However, our local secondary is diabolical. OFSTED inadequate in 2015, still requires improvement in 2017. I know OFSTED is not the be all and end all but tin the report there is so much focus on bad behaviour and disruptive behaviour in lessons and I don't want that for DD. All of the parents of her friends acknowledge it is a dire school but are happy because their children are bright and well behaved they will "survive it". I don't want DD to survive it, I want her to grow and develop into the very best she can possibly be and have a great experience. The three schools we have out on our state application form we are out of catchment for and they are over subscribed or have been in previous years. There is a chance DD will have no school offer at all, or the nearest one which has spare places which again I would not be happy about.

My concerns are that things could change and she could start and then we could not make the fees after a year or two. I'd rather she did n't get to experience it at all than she had it and we took it away. It will be stressful worrying every month about having to pay such a huge amount of money. We also have a DS9 who we would also want to offer the same opportunity, but he is sporty and practical, he struggles academically and I m not sure he would pass the entrance exam for a selective school. The two we looked at for DD have a very competitive, academically focussed entrance procedure. I hope that doesn't sound horrible, he has completely different strengths to DD and what is right in a school for her will not be or him as they are very different.

I love this school, I want DD to go there more than anything. I love the ethos, it is single sex if that is relevant and I feel her talents will be nurtured there and she will leave believing she can do absolutely anything.

So my questions are, if you have DC at private school, did you make sacrifices and is it worth it? If you comfortably afford private school fees, would you still do it in our situation?

I think this would be different if your dd had a bursary or a scholarship, but as she doesn’t, I think you need to realise you can’t afford this without sacrificing too much as a family.

You cannot afford it.

I would have simply loved send our kids to private schools, but back in the day when they were at that age, there was no way we could have paid the fees, even with two parents working full-time.

We were probably lucky in that at the time our local schools were pretty good. DS is now a lawyer and DD has just qualified as a nurse. They were always very different and I do not think a private school would have turned our DD into a lawyer, anymore than state school impaired our DS from pursuing this career.

Back in the day, I went to a state grammar, but not sure our DCs would have done anything different if they had done so.

If I could go back and make the choice again with money no object, the money for private school would have been much better being saved to help with university costs.

Absolutely if it’s the right school (many independent schools are absolutely amazing but there are a lot of bad ones too). Also an argument to make about it being wrong to take tax payers money when you can afford to pay for the costs of raising your child yourself. Do be aware of the extras though. Uniforms, music lessons, trips etc. A lot of private schools won’t cgarge extras for things like day trips but optional trips or lessons will cost extra.?

We've been through this decision this year but with 3dds it would have relied on a bursary. In the end we decided that we'd prefer the state option and use the money to travel and give all 3 dc experiences they'd miss if dd1 was at an independent school. Dd1 is highly academic and self motivated so I think she will do well with our support. It's been hard as dh and I attended single sex grammar schools.

I've been a manager of 2 men from independent schools and both were up themselves and sexist. Anecdotally independent school doesn't mean success. Yes the numbers are high for good results but that's balanced with the fact there's a higher number of dc with intelligent high-earning parents.

I think you have to listen to your gut and decide what's best for your whole family.

I’m aware of a similar scenario, friend of a friend. The parents put one child (elder) through private education and not the younger. Now as adults, the family relationship is damaged for it. It was viewed as favouritism and the one who didn’t go through private has gone off the rails a bit. Obviously, everyone is different and your DS may be totally fine with the situation, but you should consider how this plays in the future.

You must try- you’ve got this far and taster days, exams etc have prepared your daughter. I don’t think it’s too far fetched financially and each year you can apply again for financial assistance. Just accept the place.

I’ve not read the thread but wanted to comment on the paying for one and not the other.

Both of mine have done private primary, various reasons we chose this school. My oldest got into the local grammar, the younger one didn’t make the grade. We have decided to send them to private secondary. The money is a concern but for us is worth it. Our local comp is massive and I know they will struggle. But I do worry one is getting a more privileged education and I try to treat my children the same. But they’re not the same, they are individuals. The older one has been offered to be moved to the private school but they’re happy where they are. At the moment they’re not concerned their sibling is getting more money spent on them, I have asked! Because we’re only paying for one we have money to do other stuff, we would really struggle to pay for 2 but we would do it if needs be.

There are 5 children in our family - we all went to diabolical primary and secondary schools as we did not have much money - all 5 of us not only went on to uni but we all have post grad uni qualifications, law, accounting, business etc. My brother is a uni lecturer. The reason we all did this was with the encouragement and support of our parents.
Now I am a position to afford private school for my children - but I did not send them there.
Sometimes I do think private schools are the best option for some children - but if you have a bright child you can bring them up in a way were you access a lot of the extras a private school gives them. I have a list in my head of academic, emotional and social skills I would like my kids to have and I find tutors or workshops outside of school to get them these.
Only you can decide what’s best for your children - but I absolutely agree with others - if you are renting move into a catchment for a better school if you can. Also huge alarm bells ring that you are worried about making future private school fee bills. Plus...do you not think your daughter would prefer to see more of you in her teenage years than have you working more or being under pressure more paying her school bills? Or would it not be better for your family to be able to afford to buy a permanent home?
I know many private school educated adults that did not pursue anything above basic wage jobs after they finished school - if they were happy in these jobs great - but they weren’t. So please don’t assume private school education equals success.
Also - one thing surprised me when my daughter started high school was the huge change meant she needed me more than ever - it would have not been a good time for me to work more.

As a number of pps gave saud, it’s not just the fees it’s the uniform and lifestyle that goes with it. My DNs go to a private school and my BIL struggles with the extras - he often says “we can’t be expected to keep up” But invariably has to because who makes their child be the only one who doesn’t go on the class trip or take up a new extra-curricular activity with their friends? The peer pressure to keep up with all that is immense - more so than in a state school.

If the fees are going to be a stretch OP then I don’t think you should do it - be realistic about what you can comfortably afford. Also, as a secondary teacher I wholeheartedly agree with the PP who said they need you more than ever. I’m thinking of going more part time so I can be more available for my own children. So I don’t think working more is the best plan either.

If my mum hadn’t worked as a full time teacher I wouldn’t have gone to a fee paying selective secondary school. I appreciate what she did for me.

As others have said I don't think you can afford it over the long term. I know you have said you are not considering moving house but if you are prepared to sacrifice so much for education would it not be better to move a bit further away from family into a better catchment? Would this really be the bigger sacrifice than saying good bye to homeownership for the next 10 years at least, making little pension contribution over the same period - at a time when it would be crucial to do so - and forgoing most little extras for your family?
All this assuming you can pull it off and not to have withdraw your child a few years into schooling because the economy goes down, your business struggles a bit as a result etc? I would sit down with dh and look at all possible options again with a fresh mind and play through the financial implications for each scenario, including long term. Which child would like to see their parents in poverty in their old age so they could go to private school?

There is no way you can afford this with your DS only a few years younger.
I could afford private for 1 but not for 2 so they both go to state schools. You cannot
Do for one what you cannot do for the other.

I went to private school for part of my education and there is no doubt in my mind that the quality of education I received was absolutely top notch. However, I don't think an all girls school was great for me, and I didn't learn to self motivate in the way many of my state school friends did. Everything was spoon fed in tiny classes. When I got to university I'd already been taught to the first and second year standard. I was bored, capable and unable to manage my own workload.

OP, I have never been one to advocate private school: I see education as a right , not a privilege. My 3 DC are all at state school and doing incredibly well. My exH wanted private for srcondary and, I have no doubt, my eldest DC would have got a bursary of some sort as he's very academic, but I put my foot down. The older 2 at secondary - a comprehensive, we don't have grammar schools and the system is quite different here in Scotland- and both are very happy and very successful. Eldest DS 14 is predicted As in every Nat 5 (GCSE) subject and outside school.is in the national youth choir, plays drums and percussion, captain of his rugby team, in Scout Explorer's and taking his Duke of Edinburgh. I can't see how he would have had more opportunities at private school. He has lovely, like-minded friends who are all motivated and he is just a delight to be around. DS 2 is similar, although younger and more hormonal!

My point is, like other PP, you get to set the atmosphere of learning and can guide/ help your DC in so many ways without that worry of working constantly and fretting over fees.

My friend's children were/ are at private ( husband's choice) and she sees no discernible difference from our own education in state secondary. Her son hated it, they just never got him, and has not done well academically or socially. Her daughter's are both doing well, but her eldest will probably go into dance. She can't stand the private school mothers and the one upmanship. Just a thought that the grass isn't always greener.

YABVVU to treat one sibling differently to the other. My sister has done this and it has caused real psychological damage to her DS seeing his sister, in his eyes, being treated differently and has really affected the siblings relationship.

I honestly agree with PP that you can’t afford this, or guarantee you can afford this for all of her school years. It is really damaging to remove a child from school after a couple of years when either the fees hike tips the balance and makes it impossible to continue.

As much as I adore my niece, she has definitely developed a superior attitude as well as extremely expensive tastes in clothes and accessories. It’s not just the school fees.

If I was in your position I would work out a way to get my DD (and DS) into a good comprehensive and spend money on extra tuition to help them meet their best potential.

It’s also a huge amount of pressure to put on your DD to excel, to make you paying those fees worthwhile. Would you be ok with her not getting all A’s after forking out all that money and making the huge sacrifices it entails to pay the fees?

Don't do it if it's going to take most of your money. The fees have been going up at least 5% a year on average for a long time and with the pensions j changes that have just been announced, fees will have to go up more. Plus if we get a Corbyn government, 20% VAT too! It's too risky for a 7 year commitment. We have one DD in private primary but I did do the spreadsheet before committing - and she's unlikely to go to private secondary!

Random 'j' before 'pensions', disregard...

If I was in your shoes I wouldn’t. Could be financial suicide. I’d look to move into a better catchment. We did this and both my teens are thriving in an outstanding comp. Eldest predicted 789s at GCSE, school trips galore and opportunities like D of E and Brilliant club all laid on. Speaking as someone who has had personal experience of both sides of the coin.

I would counsel against it.
You cannot afford it. We put on dc through 2 years of private ( stop gap before upper school). She is our middle one, 1000 a month. Yes on paper we could afford it. In reality we never had much left over each month before we started. And whilst it seems easy to say "we will just go without and fun money" in reality it's just rubbish." No judgment but if you can save 1000 per month put it away to buy a house for all of you.

I think perspective on this comes from your own experience. I look at it as an investment for your kids.
I know quite a few people who went to private school who are in normally paid jobs (train driver, lorry driver, estate agents, security guards). All good jobs but not requiring a private education. They are all struggling with housing and rent situations.
So for me that “investment” would have been better made into helping them with a house. Ultimately we don’t need a private education but we do need a secure roof over our heads.

Now the other perspective is I have a friend who husbsnd is in an incredibly well paid high flying job, all most all of his colleagues are privately educated. They see the returns on the investment as high due to the wage etc that education has returned.

To be honest as it sounds like a real stretch I’d use that £1000 a month for better things, savings, holidays to enrich her education (e.g Parthenon, volcanoes) even moving to a better state school area.

I wouldn't in this situation. I would look to move to somewhere there are good secondary options. And I would also be prepared to focus on the second, less bright child to improve their abilities with tutoring. I don't know why it is but a few parents seem to think they should pay for tutoring to help their more academic dc and leave the less clever ones to struggle because, what, "they'll never get into grammar anyway"? Doesn't seem equitable to me. (Not saying OP's ds is struggling btw)

I would want to help both or all of my dc to achieve their potential, not throw all our income at one child's education at the expense of any other's. And if you can't afford to pay for both to have the very best opportunities available to them, then you shouldn't be looking to massively advantage the one which already has an advantage academically.

I managed to completely miss you had two
if you can't afford to pay for both to have the very best opportunities available to them, then you shouldn't be looking to massively advantage the one which already has an advantage academically.

^ this 110%
There’s been so many threads recently where children were treated differently and now adults the mental health implications are huge.
Just don’t, you have to do for both or none.

Your financial situation makes it too precarious. You do not want to send a child to a private school and then have to remove them to go to a state school because they may get the Ibetweeners experience.

On a more general note you have no idea if it’s worth it till you get end product, I worked in higher education and due to the University I ended up working in we did have a high % of privately educated students. They appeared more confident but they came from backgrounds of not having to go without or being embarrassed about not being able to afford stuff to fit in. That’s part of it.

DH attended one of the best public schools in the country I went to a state school. We could have easily afforded to send DS to private school. He had great friends at his primary school so we sent him to the closest secondary which has a large deprived estate in its catchment. I was involved with a study on this area so knew the stats. He left with all A and A* apart from one C which he was dropping so prided himself on zero revision. He hated sixth form and restarted in a college and is really happy and has just got all A’s in his mocks.

We do have another local option but it has no results until this summer, this could be an option for him but seemed a bit of a risk for DD with no GCSE/A level results to look at.

Have you visited this school? Is it a new school? In your situation I'd be inclined to chance this one over spending such a high proportion of your income on fees. If it's new then hopefully the head and other teachers are all new and enthusiastic and keen for the school to be a success. It's a risk but I think it's worth taking to avoid the extra financial strain on your family.