To ask if private school is worth it?

[Secondaryschooldilemma]

Regular poster name changed for this post as it may be outing, I have talked to a lot of people IRL about this today.

My DD11 has today been accepted for a place at a brilliant private school. However, we applied for a bursary and were unsuccessful as other girls did better in the exam and there is only a small amount of money to go around. We have been offered a fee paying place at approximately £1,100 per month. We don't have a huge household income, we bring home around £4k a month between us and our outgoings are around £2400. That includes everything except holidays and fun stuff. Some months are better, some are worse. We have looked at where we can make savings without sacrificing our quality of life and I think we could manage it. I am self employed and could theoretically bring this in as extra a month if I work hard and market my business more. We also have six months before she starts to start putting money away so we can have a bit of a cushion to start with.

We currently rent and have no savings or assets which would be a reason for not spending 12k a year on school fees. This could be saved and used towards a house deposit giving us all more security as a family. However, our local secondary is diabolical. OFSTED inadequate in 2015, still requires improvement in 2017. I know OFSTED is not the be all and end all but tin the report there is so much focus on bad behaviour and disruptive behaviour in lessons and I don't want that for DD. All of the parents of her friends acknowledge it is a dire school but are happy because their children are bright and well behaved they will "survive it". I don't want DD to survive it, I want her to grow and develop into the very best she can possibly be and have a great experience. The three schools we have out on our state application form we are out of catchment for and they are over subscribed or have been in previous years. There is a chance DD will have no school offer at all, or the nearest one which has spare places which again I would not be happy about.

My concerns are that things could change and she could start and then we could not make the fees after a year or two. I'd rather she did n't get to experience it at all than she had it and we took it away. It will be stressful worrying every month about having to pay such a huge amount of money. We also have a DS9 who we would also want to offer the same opportunity, but he is sporty and practical, he struggles academically and I m not sure he would pass the entrance exam for a selective school. The two we looked at for DD have a very competitive, academically focussed entrance procedure. I hope that doesn't sound horrible, he has completely different strengths to DD and what is right in a school for her will not be or him as they are very different.

I love this school, I want DD to go there more than anything. I love the ethos, it is single sex if that is relevant and I feel her talents will be nurtured there and she will leave believing she can do absolutely anything.

So my questions are, if you have DC at private school, did you make sacrifices and is it worth it? If you comfortably afford private school fees, would you still do it in our situation?

OP, to answer your specific question: if you have DC at private school, did you make sacrifices and is it worth it?

Yes and yes. A hundred thousand times over. I have just taken out yet another credit card (interest free) so will be paying for school fees for years after the DC have left. I haven't been on holiday for 10 years. Live in the tiniest house known to mankind. And so on. But, yes, it is still worth it. Every single penny I possess goes on school fees.

However... having another child does make it more difficult. My DC1 has a scholarship and bursary. However, I couldn't have a situation in which he was Mr Privileged, and DD was at the local comp - so hers are the fees I struggle with. I want her to have the same opportunities as him (even though, arguably, he got his place and fee discount on his own merits). I don't know what I would have done if I hadn't been able to pay her fees despite sacrificing everything else. I suppose I would just have had to hope she would understand that DS had something particular to offer his school, and that they were willing to pay for him to go there in order to benefit from this.

More generally, DS's school is the most expensive of the lot, but it's notable that it's also the most 'blind' when it comes to houses/holidays/parental wealth. There's a bigger social mix there than there is at my DD's day school. She does feel like the 'poor relation' because I have to say no to trips, outings with her friends, etc - but by the same token, we live in an affluent area and the state schools near us apparently have other problems, in that the children are bought the latest iPhones, fancy holidays etc because the parents aren't hog-tied by school fees. There is no easy answer to this one.

If I had the money I would send my kids to private school in a heartbeat. I was educated for the most part in private education and loved it in comparison to state school. If you can afford it- do it.

I agree with the idea of moving to a better area ....but think you have left it too late as applications are already in.

Did you put her in for the entrance test thinking if she gets a bursary she can go...if she doesn't she can't? But now you've seen the school it's hard to forget the idea.

My concern is that if you can only just scrape the fees can you afford the uniform and all the extra curricular activities. Can she keep up with the other kids? Can you afford for her to have birthday parties like the other kids? Can you afford the skiing lessons and holidays? Can you holiday in similar areas? Will she be left behind socially? - I am making a lot of stereotype assumptions....there may be an element of truth in what I say......but you get the drift.

Private school isn't for everyone, so I don't see a problem with only sending 1, unless they both want to go to private schools.
I think there will be a lot more opportunity for her.
I would in your position.
One thing I would consider (being me) is will you or DD mind if all the other parents are noticeably better off? Shallow of me I know.

but think id have got them anywhere as i was academic

Not necessarily: - not all the bright kids do well at failing comps - some just can't deal with bullying, disruption, low aspirations of fellow pupils, crap teachers, etc.

I was a straight A pupil when I went to our local state comp. 5 years later I'd failed all my GCEs. It was a hell hole and I just couldn't survive it, let alone thrive. Others like me from the same primary did really well, but they were in different forms, different sets etc and perhaps they weren't bullied quite so viciously as I was. Once I'd escaped I had to do part time evening classes alongside a full time low paid job to get A levels, then a masters-degree equivalent professional qualification. So I eventually turned out OK, but it was a lot of unnecessary work. Had I gone to a better comp, I may well have sailed through and achieved the same, or better, a lot quicker and with a lot less stress. The extreme bullying I endured continues to affect me 40 years later due to low self esteem, anxiety, social issues, etc.

It sounds like you've been quite optimistic about the possible outcomes for your son - assuming he will have better schooling options than your DD. You're also being optimistic on your income, which you recognize can go down, but are assuming will increase.

I don't think one should make long term financial decisions based entirely on optimism.

Just for a minute, assume that half the assumptions you have made go the other way. Suddenly you are having to pull your DD from her private school and take what you can get in the state system, or face sending your DS to the school you made clear wasn't good enough for DD.

Is private school worth it for those who can afford it, I think it often is. I'm just not sure you really can. I would revisit all other options around schooling, including relocation.

I wouldn't, if I were you. It doesn't sound like you can afford it.

@AtseneGatnalp what would you have done if your DD hadn't passed the entrance exam though? Would you have taken your DS out so they had the same standard of education? As a lot of people have said I am being unfair to DS, which was my feeling too but at the same time I don't want DD to miss out just because DS may not pass the exam or meet the other selection criteria in 2 years time...it seems unfair that she should miss an opportunity because he may not meet the criteria set by the school for the same opportunity.

If we earned that when my DD's turned 11 we would have paid it, the school was diabolical and caused my dd to have severe mental health problems. 6th form collapses fine though. Dd2 is private now and it's amazing, I wish I could turn back the clocks .... we didn't think it was right to go private, we didn't realise how bad all the schools were!

My personal situation was very similar to your daughters ... my parents made the difficult choice and sent me to the private school. My brother was tutored but didn’t even want to sit the exam for himself when the time came . My parents struggled but managed. I will forever thank them for the opportunity they gave me . My life is very different to that of my primary school peers - yes, I had the ability to get the place and the bursary but school gave me confidence and life skills to go out and achieve what I wanted.
It has affected the choices I have made for my children ( who all attend a private school) . They remain ‘grounded ‘ and appreciate the opportunities they have but ,really , their lives are so different to my childhood- in experience and their expectations of their own futures.

I mean this in the kindest possible way. You would be barmy. Your disposable income per month is £1,600. You are talking about spending £1,100 of this on educating one of your children privately.

Take this in the spirit in which it is meant. Sending your kid to private school, at enormous cost to the family (in sacrificed holidays, treats, etc.) will not make her cleverer or guarantee her future success.

More likely both your daughter and the rest of the family will resent this decision. Your DD because she can’t go on the school trip to Iceland or New Zealand, and can't have the same clothes, hobbies and opportunities as her friends. The rest of the family will resent having to cut back to afford the school fees.

I went to a not great secondary and I now earn a mint as an accountant after going to a top university and training in a big four accountancy firm. Would I have gained a veneer at private school that might have helped my career? Maybe.

Would it have been worth the sacrifice that my parents would have had to make (theoretical: my dad worked in a factory, so NO WAY was private school happening)? No.

Will a clever kid find her way irrespective of whether educated privately? Yes.

Why would you flog your guts out in your own business (please tell me it is not ‘forever living’ or ‘younique’) to make private education happen for your daughter?

One last thing: private schools are businesses, you know. Ask yourself whether your DD is just part of the revenue stream.

I'm sure she does love it. And your ds may well findd a private school he lives. The fact that the 2 schools you've applied for your dd would not suit him is entirely irrelevant!

In your situation I'd move house to a good catchment. I'd then put the £80k I save on the first child's education tobwardsxa deposit on a house and the £80k I saved in DD2s education towards tutoring on educational travel.

@MikeUniformMike and @user1474894224 I have considered this, but I think with the mix of parents making sacrifices to pay for it as lots of people do, parents with bursaries and also the very well off parents I am hoping there will be a mixture of wealthy and not so wealthy people, it won't be everyone jetting off to the Maldives every holiday while we go camping in Cornwall!! Regarding uniform, not sure if its all state secondaries but certainly our two local ones are logoed everything including skirts and trousers and are comparable in cost to the independent school uniforms so I m not concerned about that. My mum has also offered to help with the cost of extras such as uniforms and trips, she is not in a position to help with the fees.

@ANettletheelf nooooooooo I am certainly not in a scammy pyramid scheme!!!!!!! I deliver vocational training!!

DH and I went to private schools and our DC are as well. However in your circumstances I don't think I would do it. I don't think it would be fair to treat your kids differently, and I also think that if the fees are that much of a stretch now, it will only get worse if she starts. The school bill has about £500 of extras on it every term at least - music lessons, book fair, tickets for PTA events, contributions to charity, clubs, uniform, all sorts of things. And then the fees do go up every year as well.

I think the financial stress and lack of long term security on you will become intolerable and this will affect your kids more than school. I know plenty of people who have great jobs or went to great universities from comprehensives, generally they had engaged and dedicated parents who supported their education and paid for extras where it counted. I'd stick to the state sector and move area if I could (though I assume if you could do that you would have already) and use any extra cash for tutors if needed and then clubs, music lessons, DofE, riding, internships, summer camp in the US, whatever floats her (and your other DCs) boat.

We have sent our DS to an independent school this year - completely novel idea for me as my family had been state educated since forever.
The things I’ve noticed: the fees are not the full extent of the costs - even though we bought a lot of second hand uniform we must have spent getting on for £300 on uniform when you add in the gazillion items of sports kit that are required; you obviously pay extra for all the extras (music lessons, trips etc); my DC isn’t particularly image conscious, but even in y7 there is a big focus for some children on quite conspicuous consumption. Some children might find that difficult to cope with.
The opportunities are incredible. Eg learning four languages in y7, amazing sports, music, drama facilities, great ethos (in this specific school) - it’s an opportunity that, if you can, why wouldn’t you take it?
But realistically, spending 25% of your income on fees alone is a massive commitment. Particularly as, if a recession occurs and parents start withdrawing their children, fees will likely go up...
Personally I wouldn’t take the risk

Is your DH now in paid employment?

Staying in the same location because family can walk to your house to help with childcare - Will you need childcare help once the kids are at secondary?

Do you intend to rent forever or are you hoping to buy a property in the future?

I have DS in Y5 and DD in Y2 at private schools. DH and I both earn 6 figure salaries and we have a small mortgage, but the school fees are still not comfortably affordable. It will be easier once we stop paying £800 a month in wrap around admittedly.

We can afford the fees, but the uniform is expensive, DS has different sports kits for rugby, running, cricket and swimming. DD’s after school clubs cost an extra £200 a term and DS’s lunches are another £250 a term. Fees go up between 5-10% a year and there are lots of parent social events - the Summer ball is £200 a head. DS’s ski trip at Easter is £1k. These are the things that can take it over the edge from affordable to unaffordable.

We’re not self employed so have little influence over our income, we have saved previous bonuses though and have 5 years worth of fees in the bank. It still worries me that if one of us lost our job and couldn’t find another, ultimately they would have to leave. But I absolutely think it’s worth it - we’d sell the house and spend the equity in fees before we took them out.

I think if you have the capacity to increase your ratings through your business that’s the way forward.

In a post Brexit recession vocational trading will be an easy cutback for businesses to make. You really don't need to put this unnecessary financial pressure on your family. Private schools have slick marketing and will do everything they can to take your ££££s. Fine if you have the £££s and tats how you want to spend them but don't get sucked into to something you really can't afford.

I'm not sure some PP are aware of the differences between private schools. Lots of day schools certainly do not have parents who all jet off on crazy holidays every 5 minutes or ski every season. There will be some like that but equally there will be others whose parents are making sacrifices. Having worked in both outstanding state and indie, there really is no comparison I'm afraid in terms of the environment and nurturing and I would certainly give my child the opportunity if I could.

But- there are extra costs like more expensive uniform and specialist sports kit, catering charges, exam fees etc plus inflation on the fees each year so you need to be prepared for that.

Something that I don't believe has been mentioned yet - the fees will go up every year, by more than inflation. So you can afford £1,100 a month, but what about £1,500?
Also, on a single income committing to that expenditure a month at the cost of future security (a house of your own) would be mad, especially given potential resentment with your younger child too.

I wouldn't do it because you clearly can't afford to pay two lots of fees. They will go up as well, generally faster than inflation.
If the state school isn't good enough for your DD then it isn't good enough for your DS either, and you should fine a suitable independent school for him too. You described it as 'dire', not just e.g. 'not good at stretching more able pupils'.

I would do some/all of:

1. Save £1000 per month until you have savings enough to rent in a better location.
2. Move location and move DD's school in y7/y8 when you get the opportunity
3. Use some of the money saved to pay for top up tuition for both DC as and when needed
4. Get some savings for yourselves, a cushion for bad times
5. Consider paying for 6th form if you really must - that is only 2 years
6. Have the money there for driving lessons, uni, house deposits, whatever

Are you me? I always thought that if dc1 got a bursary which made it doable for me to send her, then she would have earned the opportunity and it would be up to dc2 to do the same. Having just been through the horrendous 11 plus process with a bright academic child, I now feel that if she got a place I could not deny the same opportunity to dc2 even if, as is likely he didn’t get a bursary. In fact he would benefit from private school for other reasons. And if all my disposable income went into fees for dc 1 then family life would suffer. That said I know someone whose parents declined help with dc1 fees as it would not be available for dc2 and she always resented being denied the opportunity. I really feel for you.

My child attained 5 x A*, 5 x A and 2 x B at GSCE at a standard London comp and now has an unconditional offer on a very oversubscribed University course. Do I regret not spending upwards of £100,000 on her education (tbh I have no idea how much it costs to educate a child from 3 to 18 in the private sector so I'm hazarding a conservative guess)? No. Quite apart from the fact that I think private education is a dreadful concept.