After school detention - AIBU to say no

[Florasnotin]

DD and DS missed the school bus this morning. Completely my fault, I took their phones from them last night and forgot to set the alarm. They caught the public bus and were 15 mins late.

They've both been given an after school detention on Monday.

AIBU to say no. Punishment doesn't really fit the crime and it wasn't even their fault. I've always stood by the school when it comes to discipline but this seems overly harsh

I don't agree. It is helpful for children to acknowledge that life isn't always fair because otherwise they'll be repeatedly disappointed to find out otherwise in the real world.
Learning that turning up late to school has a consequence can be a valuable lesson in forward planning.

Forty: that is already happening, according to my friends who work in higher education.

Catspaws: that’s all very well but you are clearly someone who will tell the truth about a valid reason for being late. For every one of you there is other parent who will lie to the school because their teenager rules the roost and kicks off and sulks about any school sanction until their parent rings school and starts effing and blinding. These are probably the parents who themselves displayed problem behaviour at school.

A detention for one late mark does seem over the top to me. But maybe the school is having to clamp down on lateness as it has become such a problem. Ofsted look at the figures and would find fault in the whole school if the figures weren’t what they wanted to see. OP’s kids record would still have to show an L for late, because they were. You can put a comment on SIMS about why but Ofsted would just judge on the L not the reason behind it. Often schools are constrained by this ofsted scrutiny. Inspectors don’t seem to want to listen to stories of individually difficult circumstances in some families about why a child is persistently late or absent. They aren’t really interested. All they want to know is what the school is going to do to improve the number of lates. If they have tried different levels of sanctions and they aren’t working then they will have to up, say, a lunchtime DT to an after school one.

I repeat, please try and understand how difficult it is for schools these days. The scrutiny and pressure from on high is ridiculous. The rules are set because of this. Parents should realise this and support them.

Curly. I know. I work with them at age 18+.

There are 5 secondary schools local to me all struggling to recruit head teachers. It is a huge problem. No-one wants to do the job. It is thankless, and with huge huge pressures

Pascoe, you can up and up a headteacher’s salary and STILL no-one wants to do it these days. Or the wrong people come forward, attracted by the money and then bailing out at the first sign of trouble.

I'm not in the U.K. anymore, but 70k sounds about right for a Head.

Not a bad salary.

So you'd think teachers would be aspiring to those roles.

But they aren't.

Maybe we should think about why able teachers are choosing to keep their heads under that particular parapet?

Maybe, just maybe, it's because it IS a thankless shitstorm & there isn't enough money to persuade most of us we want anywhere near it.

Pascoe - well, why do you think no one wants those jobs then?

I generally find that reason breeds reason.

I think that is spot on.

I can only imagine how difficult it must be dealing with parents who have bad attitudes and a lack of respect for you. I definitely know of parents who are like this and you can see where their children have learnt their behaviours. I can also see that teachers would be less willing to be flexible to these parents as why should they go out of their way for parents who are disrespectful and are probably being quite intimidating. I don't envy you.

For parents like me though, who don't need to contact the school often and who absolutely supports the school rules, I really appreciate teachers who listen and show some flexibility certain circumstances. I have always been shown this on the few occasions I've needed it and have always felt that the staff have done everything they could to help. The 'nightmare parents', on the other hand are on Facebook writing how terrible the school is and how it's all the schools fault. , nothing to do with how they've behaved in their meeting.

You've hit the nail on the head cats.

Typically parents like you take the rough with the smooth, you're the types who'll think 'i wouldn't choose that sanction but so be it' and then if a situation arose where you needed to have a talk and find alternatives then schools would help within reason. The reason bit is key because parents like you may seek flexibility but wouldn't seek unreasonable bending.

That's why I think reason breeds reason. Reasonable people tend to get reasonable flexibility when required because they make readonable requests and behave in a readonable manner.
People who make ridiculous requests, want basic expectations flouting for their child etc will rarely get the outcome they seek because the outcome they seek is usually ridiculous.

Panda, if schools said it was no problem to roll in late, as long as it wasn't your fault, 50% or more would roll in late.

@letstalk2000 attitude is one of the reasons I feel thankful I no longer teach. I imagine her children are aware of it too.

In any case, the views of individual teachers don't dictate school policy.

The parents complaining about ridiculous rules, when they're applied to their own child, are the same ones complaining about slipping standards.

After school yesterday I had to phone three parents regarding complaints.

The first one - my child doesn't like putting her hair up for PE, it's damaging her hair, I'll sign a safety disclaimer.

The second one - the book you are reading is inappropriate for various (spurious) reasons.

The third one - you gave my child a detention for missed homework but he had actually done it, he just forgot to bring it.

Ages on the phone before I could start doing anything productive, each of them absolutely certain that they were right (as customers) I'm sure.

@florasnotin - I hope that you are going to get your dc alarm clocks this weekend - Tesco have a clock radio for £6.50, Argos have one for £6.99, and Amazon have one for £10.99 with guaranteed next day delivery if you have Prime.

I once got a phone call from ds1’s head of Science. Apparently, during the previous school year, he had managed to make almost no Biology notes - basically a whole term’s work - I have no idea how he had passed the end of year exam! The teacher had chased him, with no joy. When the head of Science found this out, he offered me two options - either ds1 had after school detentions for as long as it took him to copy up everything he had failed to do, or he could go into school during half term (because he, the Head of Science, had to be in then anyway) to do the work.

I picked the half term option because I thought it would drive the lesson home more strongly - the HOD agreed with me. Da1 was less impressed, but as I told him, it was his own bloody stupid fault for not doing the work in the first place!

@cardibach - I am still baffled by the suggestion that punishment need not be punitive. The two are very similar in meaning. If the OP was arguing that a consequence need not be punitive, I would accept that. But on a purely pedantic, definititive level, she is wrong to say that punishment need not be punitive.

GloomyMonday

I wouldn't have complained in the first 2 situations but in the third I may have.

My son has done every homework set from year 7, he's now in year 10. If he forgot a homework now, i would expect the teacher to give him until the next day to hand it in. He has a proven track record for doing homework and everyone can forget something. My OH managed to leave some notes for a meeting at home. I scanned them and emailed them to him. It happens.

Again our school are very sensible on this and give children until the following lesson to hand it in. If they don't then they can be given a detention and I think that's fair. Some teachers don't punish for not handing in homework but that's a whole other problem.

Cats: and if it’s the same children continually forgetting homework but handing it in next day, and that never improves, would that be ok?

and if it’s the same children continually forgetting homework but handing it in next day, and that never improves, would that be ok?

No, of course not but your original post didn't specify that the child was missing homework deadlines a lot. Maybe missing more than 2 per term would be more reasonable in giving them a detention. Again its about being reasonable and if this was my son, after handing in every homework on time since year 7 I would appreciate the teacher letting him bring it in the next day. I would feel quite shocked if they didn't allow him to and instead gave him a detention. Anyone can make a mistake, forget to put something in their bag as they've left it on the printer for example. I definitely support the school setting homework and it being handed in on time. It's benefitting my child afterall.

If a child is continuing to not do homework or handing it in late, a phone call or meeting with their parents to see what the issue is may have more of an effect than detention after detention though.

Why on earth are you posting op? Really? Other than for a bun fight?
AIBU to say no. Several pages of yes you are but you don’t agree. Fine, but what on earth was the point in posting? You may as well have posted ‘my kids have a detention and I’m not going to send them’ which would have been boring but at least less tedious than pointlessly posting what you have already decided to do as a question.

Other poster ..... why are there no head teachers ..... TES survey says the number 1 reason is parents, number 2 behaviour and the government/workload 3 ....... which shows you just how fucking appalling 1 & 2 are.

The school has to have standards and apply them consistently. If it was just a one off situation in a school which just contained your children then a flexible approach could be taken.

If the school accepts it’s your fault and doesn’t apply the sanction then they must also accept and not punish all students who arrive late, as long as the reason was that it was “not their fault”.

This would mean that every lesson could be interrupted by very late arrivals and as long as someone else could be to blame it would all be tolerated.

I don’t think anyone would be ok with that.

"If he forgot a homework now, i would expect the teacher to give him until the next day to hand it in."

If I told kids they could have an extension if they forgot their homework, they'd all forget it.

In this case, he'd actually already had an extension. Mum said I hadn't^^ given him an extension. I had. So she went away unhappy and thinking I was lying. I went away thinking my job would be so much easier if parents could just trust us to apply sanctions where necessary.

Nowadays, any punishment you apply, you're just waiting for the parents' complaint, allocating time to sorting it out. Then those parents are wailing about standards slipping, without seeing the irony.

Surely they can see that my life would be much easier all round if I didn't care whether they did the homework or not? Unfortunately I want them to pass.

If I told kids they could have an extension if they forgot their homework, they'd all forget it.

That's why I said maybe having a no more than 2 homeworks late in any term rule. That should cover the kids that have genuinely forgotten it whilst still punishing those who persistently hand it in late.

Our school have a great online homework planner that makes it easy for parents to see when homework is due so lying would be hard for kids to get away with. I can't imagine not believing a teacher who said they had offered an extension already but I guess some parents just don't respect teachers which is awful.

Absolutely not unreasonable to say no. Why do punishments like that exist for lateness anyway?

Glad my kids aren't punished when I'm late dropping them off. We live in such a crazy world.

Punishments exist for lateness because it is disruptive for your child and the other children in the class when they turn up late. Would you be happy if your child was regularly missing out on class time with the teacher because other children were turning up late?

And punctuality is a good habit to get into, because there are plenty of jobs where you have to turn up on time otherwise you may face sanctions at work, and your customers/clients could be negatively impacted - or you may find that your children are late for school too often because you deliver them late.

@curlyheadassissin

I repeat, please try and understand how difficult it is for schools these days. The scrutiny and pressure from on high is ridiculous. The rules are set because of this. Parents should realise this and support them.

You acknowledge that schools are held account to a system that is not working - but instead of encouraging parents to hold it to challenge the status quo, reflect on the outcomes it is achieving and maybe ask for better, you're simply asking them to put up and shut up - what do you think that will achieve? Nothing and people will continue to feel unhappy, stressed, pressured. Believe it or not, schools in other parts of the world manage just fine without the level of micro-management that UK schools deem necessary and before someone retorts with oh but our education system is great - well no, it really isn't. No one - be they 5, 15 or 45 - fares well when they feel like their every move and action is interrogated and held to ridiculous standards. Also FWIW @gloomymonday @maisypops being a teacher does not automatically grant you some kind of saint status and allow you to sail through life without being questioned. Granted, it might be a shit job but unfortunately, that does not entitle you to automatic respect!

@florasnotin the lack of choice within the UK education system is woeful and you have my sympathies

@Thisisdoingmyheadin

Absolutely not unreasonable to say no. Why do punishments like that exist for lateness anyway?

Glad my kids aren't punished when I'm late dropping them off. We live in such a crazy world.

How would you feel if your DCs teacher was late to work?
Or your hairdresser didn't turn up for your appointment ?
Or the supermarket wasn't open because the staff had overslept?

Such a crazy world, indeed!

YABU

You could have got them to school on time, but chose not to as you wanted to "self care" by having a lazy morning. They were late because they don't have the responsibility for setting their own alarms and you didn't set their alarms for them. Both totally avoidable situations, though I will grant the latter can happen to the best of us. BUT you made a decision not to help them get to school on time, despite the initial problem being created by your error. Now you don't like the consequences. You can't pick and chose which school rules your children have to follow. Even more so if the reason they ended up in that situation is because you feel you needed a lie in.

I also imagine if the school started allowing children to be late without consequence, just as long as their parents say it "wasn't their fault" then the school would suddenly have a lot of children who were late due to parental error. And if they allow one child off, it sets a precedence that rules either don't apply (or suggest don't apply to everyone- if your mum complains enough you'll get away with it).

If the school rules are that being late/more than x minutes late = a detention, then I think that is what should happen. I do think it is somewhat hard-line that being late just once and only by a few minutes should attract such as punishment BUT if that is school policy then you have signed up to it and have to abide by it, unless there is a very good reason. I think you need to pick your battles TBH and I don't think this is the hill I'd chose to die on, so to speak. Save it for a situation that actually needs it. And buy both your children alarm clocks (so no mobiles needed) as a back up.

I also think that you can say "no" to after school detentions but my understanding is that (and I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong) because the school do not need your permission to set an after school detention if your child/ren didn't attend the initial detention on your say so, the school can decide that the punishment still stands and to then escalate the punishment to the next level- on the basis that your child(ren) have not attended the initial detention. So you may end up making this far worse than if you simply let them do the detention and chalk it down to experience.