to ask whether 55k is doable for a family of 5?

[DoWeStayOrDoWeGoNow]

Please do not hate me for asking if your family income is considerably less than this.
It is neither a stealth boast nor is it me being goady.
It is simply not wanting to go from the frying pan into the fire without thinking things through properly, especially with Brexit coming up.
My partner has been offered a job with the above salary - after tax that would be 3326 pounds a month (although I am not sure with pension payment, car lease and the like whether that would be a final figure but it would be close).
He is in his late 40s with 25 years experience and is the sole breadwinner. There are five of us - in theory, I would be working but only if son's SEN can be accommodated in the state school system. So cannot rely on me bringing in a wage and iirc 55K is above the threshold for child allowance.
Family of 4 living in the Northwest cost of living without rent was estimated at 2185 - there are 5 of us but in theory, in a band A terraced house, we can do it. Well aware it depends on outgoings whether we are nofrills and primark we are compared with waitrose and zara we're not.

Why am I asking?
Guilt.
My partner would be taking a massive paycut to do this as well as effectively demoting himself. I would ask in the Living Overseas section but I suspect, particularly with Brexit as it stands, I will be asked what on earth I am doing.

But....there is no 'right' time to come home.
If we don't return now, then when?
I have no job here where we are, no pension rights, some friends but no real ties, my parents are not getting any younger, my son needs to come back to a school system where I can better advocate for him, my eldest is scared she won't be able to manage the A-level equivalent here, my partner and I have been unhappy here for a while now but are also aware of reverse culture shock and time is running out.

Any advice? Please be gentle with me, I am stuck between a rock and a hard place right now and trying to do the best for all my family.
I guess I am asking what you would do and whether any similar sized families can confirm that those figures are within our means (Not asking you to divulge your financials, simply whether you could live comfortably and within your means on that amount).
Thanks in advance

OP - I know lots of people with mortgages in their 60s. Happily re mortgaging as well with the banks lending to them with no qualms. If you're a qualified teacher then once you've got yourself re established, there's potential for future work. It does sound as if there's a range of opportunities in returning. And people are right - we none of us know what the Brexit outcomes will be. We will be worse off but it may only be minimal - or it could be catastrophic. That's the gamble the country took so we just have to roll with it as none of us can influence anything at the moment.

That's plenty of money. Do it now or it will be more complicated. Are you sure dh will be ok with lesser job, that would be my main worry.
Just jump, you have job and house to start, your daughter is at ideal time.

Dh and I lived in various European countries including Germany. We didn’t really want to come home - dh isn’t British native anyway and he had tons of benefits as he was on an expat salary, very large houses, gardens and all the trimmings. But we’ve settled after 10 years back.

You asked about mortgages. There are mortgage companies, which give out mortgages finishing beyond 65. You have to look at interest rates and whatever is the best for you. If you are on a btl mortgage rate, you could probably get a cheaper rate thank you’re on right now. But that would be on the basis your dh is being paid in the U.K. and money going onto a U.K. account.

When Dh and I came back we needed 3 months of bank statements and (iirc) be on the electoral for our mortgage in case it was checked. Dh was always paid in the U.K. so we pretended we’d moved back with my family as we bought our house from abroad. I know rules have tightened but even now mortgage companies are interested in 3 months of payslips and 3 months of bank statements, council tax utility bills etc.

I’m sure you’re aware that you deduct the number of years you lived in your house and the last 18 months for cgt purposes. You also have a lettings relief amount max of 40k to consider so as you say cgt isn’t likely to be a large amount and you can potentially deduct any improvements adding value to your home if they are not like for like if you have the receipts.

As for making mistakes and not getting as far as you thought. This also happened to dh. In the beginning he had a stellar career and was reaching for the stars, top 10% of the company etc. Then his card was marked a couple of times for things completely beyond his control eg client bankruptcy. Result: dh found himself in an inferior position to what he would have found himself had he stayed in the same place for 10 years and I had no career. But we had an amazing experience.....

I am gobsmacked that your ds cannot get schooling. I know international schools are expensive. But I would also have a think on this. I don’t see why you would be stuck in Germany for several more years. If your dd decides to go to university, you don’t need to be there. And please realise that if your dd studies a year for the Abi and doesn’t complete the course and then comes back to the U.K., that time is not wasted. She may be a year behind from where she would have been. So I’d perhaps think of the move in more fluid terms rathe than now or in x number of years time.

I think the question to ask is. Will your dh like the job? Will he regret moving back? Don’t settle for something.

One thing I’m not sure about. Is he travelling a lot now or is the job he’s been offered have a lot of travelling? Personally I’d take a long time to pause before returning to the U.K. for a large drop in income with a lot of travelling. That’s not great for family life.

Your eldest dd is saying she wants to study in the U.K. but has she kept up with friends? How long has she been there? I agree not to get caught up in sunken costs. Equally don’t underestimate the difficulty with fitting back in when you return. You will have changed and everyone else hasn’t. I had a lot of difficulty with relating to people when I got back and still find I have more in common with people, who’ve lived abroad.

Lastly, has your dh approached his current company about help with school fees? They may be willing to assist rather than loose him.

Hi @DoWeStayOrDoWeGoNow , we are in Germany too. With all that you have said with you and your family being pretty unhappy here, and being offered the opportunity to go back home, I would do it in a heartbeat. And I say that as someone who lives here and understands. The job prospects for non Germans are not great unless you have been here for ages, and the Brits have a very tricky moment trying to convince employers that they will not have to pay a non EU employee tax with us due To Brexit.

Schooling is very important as you say and you will be better able to navigate the UK system as you know it. The German system is like a labyrinth in comparison.

Your heart is back home, and you will make it work. I seriously understand your concerns and also the time stipulations.

Do pop over to the German thread and just have a chat.

What city/general area of the north west are you going to be in OP? I am assuming DHs job will be in the Manchester or Liverpool area. If it were going to be further north then it's possible the advice might be different.

Given your last post - I think I'd move back.

We haven't moved internationally - but have done some big moves across the country. Last one was a lot of worry back and forwards - but as soon as house finally sold and it was all go it was a lot easier emotionally - we were doing it and had to deal with any problems instead of dithering and worrying about all the possibilities.

We have a mortgage that is until we are 70. The only issue is SEN and schooling, there is no way that I can work as my dc is constantly needing me for school refusal issues, camhs, hospital appt etc.

Hope it works out for you

I don't want to screw up my eldest's chances when I know how bright she is.

If your DD is really bright then she should be doing 3 core subjects for A level rather than 2 unless she specifically wants to go to art school. Could she cope with art as a 4th?

So it sounds like coming back would not be a mjor issue. I have a friend who brought up the children in germany (both parents are English) but they sent the children to an English boarding school for 2 years for A levels anmd then they went to English universities. I don't think the children were affected by moving back to the Uk at 16 and it sounds like your daughter would move back here at that point too - it is a good natural breaking point. If she is an immerse in German only and would rather die than leave her best friends in Germany kind of girl however then staying there even if to live with a friend until she does the Arbitur might have had to be the alternative. Sounds like instead she will go to a UK state sixth form college. Make sure it is one that gets good exam results.

What can she do with " Art, German and History A-Level"? German and history (two of my A levels by the way) are good what are called facilitating subjects. It might be better to keep art as an extra and do a third tougher one but it depends on what kind of university she wants to go to and what she wants to do. She could certainly be a lawyer with something like history, Englisn and German A levels - my A levels and I'm a lawyer and I read law at university in the NW.

You'll get people tell you they are a family of 15 on a salary of £12k and life is wonderful. We are two adults and a baby on around £75k and we are comfortable but not well off. We drive older cars , holiday once a year, no debt to service other than mortgage. DCs are expensive. We do live just outside of London though a budget of just over £200k would just about get a small flat. It's doable, but won't be much fun especially if you have to live in a house that's too small for two years.
Your eldest might be scared of the A level equivalent but the German education system is excellent and if she stays she'd get free uni, here she'd come out with £30-£50k debt. With your higher family income there could you afford private support for DS? SEN sorry isn't always good here either.
Think about it this way, if you were told suddenly you'd have to leave and come back to the UK tomorrow how would you feel, ask your eldest and DH too? Excited, relieved, upset? Trust your gut

We are a family of 5 living in Warwickshire and are on almost exactly that monthly income after tax (though myself and DH both work).
Our mortgage is almost £1k.
I won't lie, it can be tight at times to live a lifestyle I am happy with. We rarely eat out, struggle with cars and only go on holiday if it is heavily subsidised by my lovely parents, or if one of us gets a bonus or does a lot of overtime.
That said, we have debt which we are clearing from when we were on much less money - we had a huge move just before starting our family, and I was very ill with MH problems a few years ago which led to drastically reduced income. If we didn't have debt, things would look a lot rosier.
I also feel very silly saying that amount can be tight, because at times we have managed on much less, and I know most people manage on less. I just want to give a realistic perspective as I think once you are used to living on more money, it can be quite hard to distinguish between what is necessary and what is not.

Oh by the way I did A levels in German, history, English and psychology, I did a law degree with German. Gave me lots of opportunities for careers

One thing to note is that hardly any 6 forms do german a level. So make sure the college she registers in actually does it!

We came back from Germany after 23 years there and had kids in the special needs schools in Germany. There they were completely separate sen schools which had great sen teaching and covered needs really well. The sen provision there was actually much better than here though they have now settled here and don’t want to go back anymore.

I suspect as well as the debt you are probably funding a few things OP wouldn't need earthbound. You probably need childcare? Plus if OP is living in one of the urban areas of the north west with only one person working then they're not likely to need two cars, and with 50k equity and a 20 year mortgage they could well end up paying a lot less per month than you are.

In your position I would probably go back for the sake of your youngest. Unless you have a very good local friend prepared to help you to find out about the options available to him and battle for them, I think your son won't get the support that he could get in the right UK school.
If you did get that support and staying was more likely, do you have any schools near you offering International Baccalaureate so that your DD could take exams in English? Near us there's one (it's private but as you probably already know that has a different meaning here, costs around €200 per month). Even if you do go back, she's in a great position to return to Germany for her studies if she wanted to.
It's a tough decision OP, good luck.

Unless you would never come back , you should be moving back sooner rather than later . What was the reason behind moving to Germany ? , if your husband is on a much better salary have you managed to save?
You arent going to starve or be homeless , you just may not have a lot of spare money , although plenty of people live well on less , its really more of a case of what you spend
Does your daughter really need to go to Uni?

Cost wise it is doable if you have a no fills lifestyle. We are a family of 6, living in the east, renting with a lesser income. One person working full time. Sen at play with one (diagnosed) and another (being assessed).

Up north I suspect you would get a lot more 'bang for your buck' on your income.

What you need to consider is the school issue. Would you leave the 17 year old if they wanted to stay?

Whilst Sen provision might not be great here, it doesn't seem like it's any better where you are. Schools here are obliged to help form assessments for diagnosis etc so finding a good school with a senco and working with them might benefit you. Either way you are going to have to be the squeaky wheel to ensure your son is able to access education which suits him.

Would you be able to afford to move back later, closer to retirement age etc.

Was the plan always to come home?

I suspect there will never be a right time. If you ride out brexit will age be a factor?

Good point on german dying out in state schools. Even in the private sector whilst my older children studied French Latin and German the younger 2 were at a school which did French Spanish and Latin - no German on offer which is a pity.

Private school in NW Withington Girls does German www.wgs.org/. She might want to try for a sixth form scholarship to a fee paying school perhaps.

I’d say come home too. You will be better placed to get the help you need for your son in a uk state school. Your daughter will have options of 6th form school or college. You’ll feel less anxious and depressed which in turn can only benefit your family.

We lived in the NW for 8yrs and that salary is doable as long as you avoid places like Cheshire, South Manchester, South Stockport and some parts of Bury. Housing costs in these areas can be SE prices but avoid these and you can find somewhere plenty big enough. Good luck. I can sense the anxiety in your voice. Just take the job.

Does your DD have an Irish passport? Scottish universities currently don't charge fees to home and EU students, but does charge English students fees. Who know what will happen post Brexit though.

I'd not worry about student loans, it's effectively a graduate tax in all but name. However you should be aware that on a household income of £55K you will be expected to contribute to her living costs up to about £6K a year. So take £500 a month off your incone to factor that in.

TBH if I was you I'd not want to do anything until you see how bad things get in the UK if we end up with a no deal Brexit. Do you really want to come to a country where people are stockpiling food and there are gagging orders on pharmaceutical companies? The country is so divided and whatever happens over the next two months it's just going to get worse.

On the subject of your elder dd she would have the choice of a gap year or could do a one year foundation course which would help her choose her course for uni better.
It seems like the right time if you are to get her into 6th form.My dd has her interview on Friday but applications will still be considered until July so all colleges are different.

We are a family of four living on a similar amount in the NW- I work part-time.

It's fine - we actually save a fair bit- but we have low outgoings as a family. Specifically our mortgage is low and will be paid off within 2 years. Other families have a similar standard of living but pay much more in mortgage, I think.

I think the student loan issue was she would not get one at all and might have to pay a full £15k a year plus halls rent unless she had lived here for 3 years hence need for 2 years sixth form and then gap year.

Me and my partner bring in (as a whole) just under that before tax etc and we manage just fine

TBF there's even quite a lot of cheap housing in South Manchester driveshaft, it's just not in places the majority of MN seem to find acceptable. But plenty of 3 beds to be had for 150kish.