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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the only people who want 'Nn Deal' have no idea what this means?

650 replies

KennDodd · 22/01/2019 17:47

And don't believe you if you tell them. Facts and laws just seem to be wafted away as irrelevant.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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mobyduck · 23/01/2019 08:41

*This seems to be doing the facebook rounds, so some people do have some fairly concrete ideas about what they dislike about the EU

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU gr* etc etc

Surely this is all reason to stay in the EU? If it is giving grants and relocating industry to more profitable areas,isn't that is good?
The Devon farmers voted 70-30 out,partly because they did not agree that the CAP farming subsidies were fair.
So now they won't receive farming subsidies at all.
They are hoping the EU government will give the same as they had, but I personally doubt it, whatever Gove says about post-Brexit environmental riches.

Getting out of the EU because we don't agree with development in it is cutting off our noses to spite our face.

mobyduck · 23/01/2019 08:42

They are hoping the UK government

KennDodd · 23/01/2019 08:42

I have yet to encounter a leaver who understands what the GFA did, how it did it and why, or who cares about any of those questions

Actually I have, just one, on MN not that long ago. Firm supporter of leave but said that if a solution couldn't be found, as it seems clearly now it can't, then peace must take priority and Brexit must be cancelled. She was still a strong supporter of Brexit and thought it would be the best thing for the country but peace was more important to her. She's the only leaver I have ever heard both on line and irl who has given a single shit about NI. Cant remember posters name. Maybe if they're reading they could post?

OP posts:
Mistigri · 23/01/2019 08:45

I think in fairness it is not correct to say that no leavers cared about the GFA, since there was a minority leave vote in NI, but it is obviously true that no-dealers don't know/don't care about the GFA since no-deal and the GFA are mutually incompatible.

luckylavender · 23/01/2019 08:56

I hate this never ending 'short term' pain narrative. That short term pain is people's lives and jobs. Another generation thrown on the scrap heap. And for what?

KennDodd · 23/01/2019 08:59

Q for those who say they do understand the implications of no deal and it means short term hardship for long term gain.
What is this hardship?
How/why will it happen?
What are the likely consequences of it?
Will you have to suffer hardship yourself such as losing your job or home?
What are these benefits we will see?

OP posts:
ShatnersWig · 23/01/2019 09:04

Even Farage didn't want NO DEAL. That says it all surely.

Wake up Brexiters. Some of the loudest people who spoke in praise of Brexit have jumped ship. Dyson is moving his HQ to Singapore. Yes, no job losses in the UK but what a strange co-incidence that Singapore has just signed a trade deal with Europe which, with Dyson moving its HQ there, will be able to take advantage of.

I have yet to see anyone tell me how we can partition Northern Ireland and not have a hard border again. People shout "technology" but that technology ain't here yet. Sorry, but if there is no way to ensure no border again in Ireland, then Brexit should be kicked into the long grass regardless of the opinion poll result that should never have even been asked.

Havanananana · 23/01/2019 09:15

^Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant … etc^

The list missed (as just one example):

Nissan established their European manufacturing base in the UK (Sunderland) because a) the UK was the gateway to the EU and b) they received millions in support and grants from the UK government.
Ditto - Toyota, Mitsubishi, Honda, Sony, Mitsui and dozens of other Japanese companies.

As for some of the other examples, the UK public, both as voters and consumers, could take action to oppose the moves - e.g.

Boots Alliance is one of the largest suppliers of drugs and medicines to the NHS. Every time you buy cosmetics, collect a prescription, get your eyes checked etc you as a consumer are putting money into a company that uses its Switzerland base to reduce its UK tax bill. In June 2008, the group headquarters were moved to Zug, Switzerland. According to John Ralfe, Boots' former head of corporate finance, "the UK has lost about £100m a year in tax as result" - so in the 10 years since the move, the UK has lost something like £1billion in tax. Much of Boots' revenue comes from the taxpayer in the first place in the form of payments for prescriptions and for the drugs dispensed. As a consumer, you could make the decision to shop elsewhere. As a voter, you might ask your MP why the NHS pays so much money to a company that actively seeks to reduce its UK tax bill.

If you don't agree with Cadbury moving their production to Poland, then don't buy their chocolate. Don't shop at M&S - and tell them why. Don't buy Gillette products and so on.

MissMalice · 23/01/2019 09:17

And the blindingly obvious - leaving the EU isn’t encouraging businesses to stay in the UK.

ShatnersWig · 23/01/2019 09:19

@Moby a quick Google search will bring up the fact that pretty much every "fact" in that list that's been doing rounds is total and utter bullshit.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 23/01/2019 09:54

The UK isn’t leaving the EU to eradicate neo liberalism. None of the leave campaigners suggested this. To want to change the EU as a member as well as challenging social inequalities brought about by uk domestic policies is not a difficult concept to grasp. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is not the solution.

BorisBogtrotter · 23/01/2019 10:26

"Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant."

No, Cadbury was taken over by Kraft who moved it to Poland, there was no EU grant to do this.

"Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant."

Nope not true, analysis of it here:

twitter.com/emporersnewc/status/895966891684048897?lang=en

The plant in Southampton was in danger from 2007 onwards after it turned out it was operating at a deficit of £6m ( along with other Ford issues at the time which led to restructuring world wide).

In 2008 it was announced as part of this that the Southampton plant would have reduced output to 35,000 vehicles a year by mid 2011.

There is far more here too.

TL/DR the Southhampton plant was in danger long before Ford recieved a loan ( not a grant) from the EU bank ( approved by George Osborne). The Southampton plant closed because of Ford restructurig, which had been in the planning since 2008.

"Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds."

the Slovakia plant doesn't mean less jobs here. Tata are an Indian company and nothing to do with the EU.

"Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU gr* etc etc"

Not true, as with Cadbury there was no loan or grant to Peugeot.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/4936696.stm

So all of those claims are factually incorrect.

1tisILeClerc · 23/01/2019 10:55

{ CuriousaboutSamphire Wed 23-Jan-19 07:28:27

This seems to be doing the facebook rounds, so some people do have some fairly concrete ideas about what they dislike about the EU

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.}

It's called Karma for the asset stripping that the British did to 'The Empire' in previous centuries, followed by total incompetence and lack of forethought since WW2.
The UK government have brought all of this on themselves.

1tisILeClerc · 23/01/2019 10:56

I was not endorsing the claims in that copied post.

ShatnersWig · 23/01/2019 10:57

Hilarious. Someone posts the fictitious Cadbury list and I say it's been proved bollocks and can be proved in a quick Google search. @Boris very kindly provides that proof. Then some idiot reposts the list we've proved is bollocks.

This is what we're dealing with people. You can't reason with stupid.

BorisBogtrotter · 23/01/2019 10:59

"I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy,"

Ahh fishing, so when we get our fishing waters back where are we going to sell the fish to?

75% of all of the British current fishing catch is exported, the majority to the EU, add to that the % of the catch landed by EU boats which is also sold in the EU and you are going to see that the majority of fish from UK waters is sold in the EU. Most fish consumed by Brits is imported.

So we are we going to get a deal where fish from the UK enters the EU tariff free and we retain all of our fishing waters, and still get access to other waters ( 10% of our catch) ?

Sounds like people don't really understand the issues.

ShatnersWig · 23/01/2019 11:05

Sounds like people don't really understand the issues

Indeed. Which is why asking us to have a simple YES/NO opinion poll and promising to implement it was the most cretinous decision made by a PM in living memory.

We pay our politicians to understand these things for us. Majority didn't and don't think we should leave. I'm good with that.

Mistigri · 23/01/2019 11:06

This seems to be doing the facebook round

Someone also just posted it on another thread (the one about P&O).

In that case, you can tell from the formatting that it probably comes from here: janetteheffernan.blogspot.com/2016/06/brexit-list-of-uk-companies-no-longer.html

But identical posts are all over the internet, because some people are too lazy to form their own opinions.

BollocksToBrexit · 23/01/2019 11:07

Took 5 seconds of googling to see that the 'x moved to Poland with an EU grant' statements are just more brexit myths. The EU does not give grants to encourage a company to move from 1 EU state to another.

Burpsandfustles · 23/01/2019 11:31

Ah it's karma is it, OK. In that case we deserve brexit and all the chaos that comes with it 🤔.

Wonder what Germany in particular deserves... Netherlands, France.. Spain... All had empires.. All deserve some nasty karma coming their way! Belgium too..

Aquilla · 23/01/2019 11:34

I want no deal. Have from the start.

BorisBogtrotter · 23/01/2019 11:40

Funny all the No dealers from the start people.

No deal was never discussed prior to the referendum.

Revisionism worthy of Ingsoc that is.

GrammarTeacher · 23/01/2019 11:44

@Aquilla - so do you care about the effect o. NI?

bellinisurge · 23/01/2019 11:46

There's a thread on Craicnet with Irish posters having to think about prepping for this stupid shit caused by another country.