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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the only people who want 'Nn Deal' have no idea what this means?

650 replies

KennDodd · 22/01/2019 17:47

And don't believe you if you tell them. Facts and laws just seem to be wafted away as irrelevant.

OP posts:
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mobyduck · 23/01/2019 11:49
  • haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy,"

Ahh fishing, so when we get our fishing waters back where are we going to sell the fish to?*

We will sell our fresh fish to Europe as we have always done- and need to do, to sustain Scotland's fishing industry. We get our shellfish to France in less than 24 hours. (Scotland can't compete in the frozen fish industry).

Babycham1979 · 23/01/2019 12:07

Well, according to a Sky News poll, 26% of people somehow think 'No Deal' actually means Remain!?!?!

mobyduck · 23/01/2019 12:28

Well, according to a Sky News poll, 26% of people somehow think 'No Deal' actually means Remain!?!?!

It does. A metaphor: you take your used car to a garage. The salesman doesn't offer you what you want or expect. You say, No Deal then.
You go home, nothings changed.
You can take your car to another dealer in the future who might be a bit more reasonable.

ColourMeExhausted · 23/01/2019 12:29

This is what we're dealing with people. You can't reason with stupid @ShatnersWig says it all really.

Another day, another Brexit thread and yet another resounding failure by Brexiteers to explain their reasons for thinking No Deal is going to be anything other than a terrible decision with lasting repercussions for jobs, the economy and lives.

mobyduck · 23/01/2019 12:33

No Deal means the deal is off the table. Brexiters don't like it because they want a Hard Brexit.

greenelephantscarf · 23/01/2019 12:39

but 'no deal' is hard brexit. the hardest if hard. which is what people need to understand.

BorisBogtrotter · 23/01/2019 12:42

Lets be honest most people don't understand half of the issues that surround this. Or are able to do the joined up critical thinking into the reasons for the referendum, or the leave vote.

GrammarTeacher · 23/01/2019 12:55

Moby - no! No Deal means leaving with no arrangements whatsoever! That's why so many are worried about it. I would be thrilled if it meant remain but it just doesn't.

bellinisurge · 23/01/2019 13:01

@mobyduck - no Deal is a hard Brexit. Seriously, you know this, right?

millyonth · 23/01/2019 13:02

Kendodd I am the "no dealer" who said we would have to cancel Brexit if there is no solution to the hard border and therefore the Good Friday Agreement.

Peace is more important than prosperity.

It's a terrible pity because I don't think the ideology of the EU is good for the world or the UK. I believe in free trade and think we would quickly get a good free trade deal with the EU if we left with no deal, because of the huge trade surplus they have with us.

We will see. It's a funny old world if we have to stay in the EU forever because of the border with Ireland but there it is.

bellinisurge · 23/01/2019 13:16

The GFA is an international agreement not an obscure little bit of paper. It followed years of murder and misery. If we ignore that or trash it, our word is worth nothing. Who wants to cut a deal that favours a country capable of that?

BorisBogtrotter · 23/01/2019 13:30

"I believe in free trade and think we would quickly get a good free trade deal with the EU if we left with no deal, because of the huge trade surplus they have with us. "

This is overly simplistic. If we left with no deal the UK is damaged to a far larger extent than the EU, because the UK exports a far higher proportion to the EU (45%) than the EU exports to the UK (15%).

Its also forgetting that the EU is not one entity, most of those exports are in the hands of a few countries.

You believe in Free Trade? So the Minford Model? Can you explain why ?

RedToothBrush · 23/01/2019 13:48

No Deal is better than the crummy deal negotiated by May. WTO terms are slightly less advantageous but we can negotiate our own trade deals going forward.

The Withdrawal Agreement is NOT the final deal. It is a stopping post to a deal. The WA could mean we end up on WTO terms eventually OR it could mean we have a much closer relationship to the EU than that.

All the WA does, is settle some of the issues relating to the shock of leaving the EU by providing a stepping stone to a new relationship and a transition period.

The popular misconception is that May's deal is the final deal on offer. Its not.

No deal means no trade deals.
No trade deals means no trade.
No trade means no goods or services.
No goods or services means no food imports, medicine imports, imports of power, flights landing from other countries.
Overnight these things would just stop with no deal.

This is also incorrect. What is most likely if we have customs arrangments reinstated over night in a no deal scenario is a supply chain shock, caused by delays of goods coming in and out of the country. Few companies know what documentation would be required, which would lead to problems at the border in addition to the simple increase in the length of time that checks take. Its been estimated that a delay of just 2 minutes per lorry would bring the country to a halt with massive shortages of things imported.

Because we have been so used to Just In Time manufacturing, even a slight delay could lead to production lines being shut down costing businesses thousands in the process.

In terms of planning for this several car manufacturers are planning for this by having costly shut downs around the 29th March. They would not do this if they thought there wasn't a large risk to the supply chain.

Its worth noting the money that government is putting into No Deal planning now too. Thats different from pure 'project fear' stuff. Both government and business are looking at potential problems with no deal and are risk assessing them. Its hard to argue that this is purely about scaring people at this point.

'The Backstop'
I'm going to do an explainer of what the backstop is and is supposed to do, because quite frankly I'm so pissed off at the media not doing so.

The Backstop is a mechanism designed to protect the Good Friday Agreement from being broken either accidentally or deliberately. The EU want any deal to take this into consideration and to ensure it has been properly addressed in decision making - mainly because they have lost trust in the UK government to take the issue seriously. This is why there is no time limit on it. This does not necessarily stop a harder style brexit; it does make it more difficult and such a suggestion would require serious thought and a workable solution which to date no one has come up with. It doesn't mean there isn't one. The main point is that we have more than one international agreement to which we have obligations to fulfil when we consider when leaving the EU. We can not disregard it, because we want to rip up one agreement.

When politicians say they want to get rid of the backstop, they are in effect saying that they do not want to protect the GFA. The problem is that the backstop has become a euphimism for hiding the truth of what these politicians say. Some of them are on record in the past as opposing the agreement and would welcome the opportunity to rip up the GFA. This is obviously a concern.

No Deal has the effect of breaking the GFA by accident purely because it would force a hard border - because of BOTH EU and WTO rules.

On top of this if we no deal we break an international peace treaty. Which isn't a good look if you are trying to make a bunch of new international deals. It brings your reputation and trust into question.

I do think there are lots of things that people, no matter what they voted, do not understand properly.

This is highlighted most by the likes of Jeremy Corbyn and Jacob Rees-Mogg (and many many others) frequently talking about the customs union and having not a clue what it means you can and can't do. Or talking about WTO terms and what you can and can't do, which is utterly bollocks.

Anyone who doesn't spend the time to sit down and read a lot of the detail from those who do this for a living, don't have a hope of understanding it.

I have spent a lot of time doing this, and even now I couldn't honestly tell you off the top of my head how WTO tariffs work. Cos its so frikking complicated. I do know certain fundamental errors that are current being pushed as tropes by many MPs though. And thats actually alarming.

I think the best way to describe no deal is that it is a 'shock event' which we are seriously underprepared for which will have very serious consequences which in some cases are potentially a danger to life. No deal as a possibility might not be so bad, if we did have adequate planning or capacity to crisis manage. The trouble is that its very clear that we don't simply because of the sheer scale of the problem.

The risk of it going horribly wrong is huge. And might not be a question of something we would recover from in 10, 20 or even 30 years. It could be such a structural shock that we never recover from it.

And whilst I generally do believe that necessity is the mother of invention, no deal is simply playing a game of Russian Roulette and its too much of a risk.

The scale of the ramifications of no deal is mind blowing. And as such I do not believe that ANYONE can fully understand how no deal will play out in reality. I just understand the scale of the challenge and the lack of provisions in place to deal with all the changes that it could entail. Its thousands of crisis all at once.

Its all so deeply frustrating.

RedToothBrush · 23/01/2019 13:51

the vocal remainer posters on here have been pro corbyn

Looking at the usernames on this thread, thats the bigger pile of crap on the entire thread!!!

mobyduck · 23/01/2019 13:52

We could give Brexit a whirl for a few months and then re-join- the EU would let us.

bellinisurge · 23/01/2019 13:59

Vocal Remainer who fucking hates that twat, Corbyn. And I have said so on numerous occasions.

@mobyduck , if we were to rejoin we'd have to accept the Euro. Which I personally don't want. We have a sweet deal now.

RedToothBrush · 23/01/2019 14:05

@mobyduck , if we were to rejoin we'd have to accept the Euro.

I don't know thats true. There are reasons why it might not necessarily be the case and why the EU might also recognise that its not a good idea and in their best interests.

The rule is that any new joiner should join the Euro. However the EU could make an exception for a rejoiner in theory.

Its more of a political will question rather than an absoluete.

BorisBogtrotter · 23/01/2019 14:27

" if we were to rejoin we'd have to accept the Euro."

Not true. There has never been any evidence of that, in fact A8 accession members such as Poland are not making preparations to join the Euro. Why would they insist on the UK doing so?

More fantasy.

RedToothBrush · 23/01/2019 14:35

The EU did introduce a new rule which compelled any new future joiners to adopt the euro. I think that this was supposed to happen with

BorisBogtrotter · 23/01/2019 14:38

I don't think its going to.

BorisBogtrotter · 23/01/2019 14:40

BTW Any Leaver who claims its about sovereignty, well guys, your claims are now dust.

A leave MP has just asked the Polish government to veto any requests for extending article 50. So asking a foreign power to intervene and prevent the UK parliament from working in the national interest.

So you don't like the British Sovereign Parliament.

You don't like British judges ruling on British laws.

Your iniquitous claims are in tatters.

RedToothBrush · 23/01/2019 14:42

There is an obligation for several of the most recent joiners to commit to joining the euro in the future.

In reality the EU has never issued a time frame for them to do it, and with economic and social changes I do not expect them to apply any political pressure to fulfill this any time soon. Indeed there's a lot of arguments to say it wouldn't be in the EUs interest to do so in the current political climate

To my knowledge none of these countries have taken steps towards these goals either.

I think it's a hard one. Technically it's a rule which ideally many in the EU would like, in reality its not going to happen any time soon (at least the next decade) in so far as I can see.

It would do more harm to the union than bring it together and I think there is a recognition of this.

I think this political reality would also give the potential for a UK opt out even now.

The thing that would go would be the CAP. And there's arguments to say that might be in our environmental interests to do so anyway. (even if ecomonically it's not so great for us).

mobyduck · 23/01/2019 14:46

The UK should be making plans to re-join the EU NOW- we know how long it takes to decide anything nationally.

MuseumofInnocence · 23/01/2019 14:49

The UK should be making plans to re-join the EU NOW- we know how long it takes to decide anything nationally.

At the same time as we are negotiating to leave?

mobyduck · 23/01/2019 14:51

At the same time as we are negotiating to leave?
We could be laying the groundwork in readiness.

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