To email school AGAIN re religious assemblies

[pineapplepenthouse]

I have twins in year 4 both in different classes. I have expressed my feelings about not letting them be involved in religious assemblies or having anything to do with religion. My children are in different classes. Today for the third time my DDs has come home saying he has been included in the religious assembly.
I have strong feelings on this but other mums just say 'it's not a big deal' and 'it didn't do us any harm'.

AIBU?

What happens when it comes to Christmas

It seems OP's children are much too special to be involved in "rubbish" regarding Christianity but are definitely allowed to take part in fun things relating to Christ's Mass, which lets be fair - even though Christmas is seen as a pagan festival, it wouldn't be celebrated if Christians hadn't come up with the story of Christmas.

Most people see it as a story. It is, indeed, called the Christmas story.

In exactly the same way that schools used to teach stories from the Bible during assemblies. Assemblies these days concentrate more on love and kindness to others along with basic values and morals we all should live by.

If OP wants to pick and choose which elements of Christianity her children are allowed to take part in then maybe home education is a better option for her children.

It would save unnecessary disruption to the class as teacher tries to figure out whether these precious children should be present for religious teachings, or not. And then have to find somewhere to put them whilst the rest of the class is taught as per curriculum..

Let's face it OP would be the first one moaning if there was an assembly about Easter and her children weren't given a creme egg because teacher excluded them - as per their mothers flaky instruction.

By unbelievable, I was referring to a child's "inclination to the supernatural".

That's not to say that God is unbelievable but that if a child would readily accept the proposition of Santa, fairies and monsters under the bed, their predisposition to believe unbelievable things cannot be understood as some kind of innate faith.

even though Christmas is seen as a pagan festival, it wouldn't be celebrated if Christians hadn't come up with the story of Christmas.

It may not have been celebrated as Christmas without Christians, but mid winter and Solstice celebrations took place well before the existence of Christ by a few thousand years. To suggest that a big celebration with decorations and feasting at or just after the time of the Solstice would have died out it it wasn't for Christianity is a little naive.

Christmas was banned by the church in SCotland for 300 years.

And celebrating Christmas is a cultural thing in this country. There is no expectation of belief or worship in most schools’ Christmas celebrations.

And I would say 'God exists regardless of faith.'

Critical thinking is super important for children (as is an understanding of their heritage, family and cultural beliefs and customs). Critical thinking and holding religious beliefs are not in opposition to each other. Critical thinking can actually strengthen beliefs. Christians should engage with athetists and other religious believers in respectful debate.

I very much agree that parents should be able to opt out of their child participating in religious worship (unless the child wishes to do so).

There is no expectation of belief or worship in most schools’ Christmas celebrations.

Nor in most homes.

predisposition to believe unbelievable things cannot be understood as some kind of innate faith.

Never said it was. I called it out as an empty statement used by an atheist earlier in the thread to suggest that children are born athetist (which I don't believe is true).

It may not have been celebrated as Christmas without Christians, but mid winter and Solstice celebrations took place well before the existence of Christ by a few thousand years. To suggest that a big celebration with decorations and feasting at or just after the time of the Solstice would have died out it it wasn't for Christianity is a little naive

And yet all Primary schools put in a little play at Christmas entitled "The Nativity", which whether you like it or not is a Christian story about the birth of Jesus.

I bet OP's children are allowed to be involved in that!

If the secular, atheist, agnostic, humanist groups want to go into schools and lead assembles I'm sure they would be welcomed.

Nope. Incredibly difficult for any other group to get the same access to kids in schools.

problem...regularly separated from peers

There are various things which mean my DD is separated from her peers. It really isn't a problem.

@BlueSlipperSocks I shouldn't have to home school my children because I disagree with them being involved with worshiping something we don't believe in at home. In fact, I legally DON'T have to! Because by law the school must withdraw my children if I request them too.

The Easter service is held at the church. I've said already that I keep them at home and put them in after lunch.

Oh, and it's against school policy to hand out sweets or chocolate so no need to worry there!

Critical thinking and holding religious beliefs are not in opposition to each other.

Of course not. Lots of adult hold religious beliefs and have critical thinking skills. I'm just saying that children don't have critical thinking skills. I was just saying that a child's predisposition to believe is no marker of faith, which can surely only exist alongside critical thinking skills.

And yet all Primary schools put in a little play at Christmas entitled "The Nativity"

Ours doesn't.

They do a P1 Christmas play, in 5 years it's never been the nativity.

Critical thinking and holding religious beliefs are not in opposition to each other. Critical thinking can actually strengthen beliefs. Christians should engage with athetists and other religious believers in respectful debate

This ^ - as WhatisFreddoingnow says.

Respectful debate is the crucial factor - not just making demeaning remarks about believing in fairies etc.

And there have been and still are, many highly intelligent and educated people in all disciplines, who have a deep faith - and many who have none. Faith, pr lack of it, it not related to IQ or education level.

“Respectful debate is the crucial factor - not just making demeaning remarks about believing in fairies etc.”
It’s not very polite to compare belief in God with believing in fairies and I personally wouldn’t do it. But it is accurate. And much less rude than a lot of the stuff that has been chucked at the OP and her supporters on this thread!

I did not say believing in God was the same as believing in fairies. I said children believe in fairies and interested that their capacity to believe just about anything is not a marker of some pre-verbal faith which needs to be channelled into a religious bent.

Interested = inferred

“Christians should engage with athetists and other religious believers in respectful debate”

Which is very hard to do while Christians continue to think their views take precedence over other people’s.

Faith, pr lack of it, it not related to IQ or education level.
There is a correlation between more education and less belief - does suggest there might be something in it.

@Yabbers I think your DD's experience is much less common than you think & it does sound more extreme. I don't think it is appropriate for children in a non denom school to be told to say their prayers at night & doubt many children would actually do it anyway unless this kind of religious observance was supported by family at home!

My point is that making your child stand out or be different over something like this is in my opinion unnecessary! School is tough enough for kids on the whole & why you you want to make yours stand out? OP says her DD's friends are jealous of her time out from assembly but that would soon change if on one day something happened in that assembly that had all her peers talking. She will be missing out on an important part of school life that is a fact! Assemblies are valuable whole school events that are often used to pass on messages to the children as well as sharing & celebrating achievements. I think the teacher is placing more importance on the OP's DD's inclusion rather than a fear of a religious 'indoctrination' that quite frankly will not happen! And if it was happening then I'm sure OP would not be the only one who had issue with it!

But as I said before ultimately the school has to listen to the parent & they should be removing her children. It is OP's right & it has been requested.

OP's children are much too special to be involved in "rubbish" regarding Christianity but are definitely allowed to take part in fun things relating to Christ's Mass, which lets be fair - even though Christmas is seen as a pagan festival, it wouldn't be celebrated if Christians hadn't come up with the story of Christmas.

Beg to differ here. Anglo-Saxon paganism was introduced to Britain centuries before Christianity arrived and Paganism was heavily ingrained in everyday life for every household. It was a way of life. Had Christianity not been a thing, you can bet we would still be celebrating the winter Yule festival with bringing greenery indoors, utilising mistletoe to promote fertility, decorating the house and even carolling (known as wassailing) which was to go from home to home singing songs and drinking to the good health of ones neighbours. So Christmas would still exist in many of the ways it is celebrated now, except it would be about fertility and health.

@BertrandRussell

You are using a blanket stereotype for all Christians. I don't think that my beliefs take precedence over other beliefs. I believe my beliefs are true (otherwise they wouldn't be my beliefs) but listen to the arguments for and respect other people's praticises (or lack of praticises). Do I fit into your statement that:

"Christians continue to think their views take precedence over other people’s".

Do athetists continue to think that their views take precedence over other people's?

The vast vast vast majority of athetists are respectful to people of belief so I wouldn't make such a blanket statement.

There is a correlation between more education and less belief - does suggest there might be something in it.

Best tell Jesuit priests that! Also, priests have to usually obtain 4-8 years of post graduate education before being ordained.

pineapplepenthouse I’m 99.9% sure were talking about the same dude. I had the same conversation with him that your mum did.

Given your description of the area .....I could probably guess you / your partner’s field of work / what it’s related to (other than farmer).
If I could be bothered to think about it more I could prob work out the school.

Given the nature of the region we live in (lots of small nattery communities - have to really be careful about what you say to who), I would say your posts have become quite identifying.

On another note the debates that this thread as thrown up are really quite interesting.

Hi there, this is Megan from the National Secular Society. We completely sympathise with you and any other parents who wish to withdraw their pupils from religious worship, or have concerns about the inappropriate encroachment of religion on their children's education. We'd like to hear more from you! We may be able to help; we are often contacted by parents on this very same issue. Please get in touch by contacting me at [email protected], or phone 020 7404 3126.

In the meantime, you can find out more about the issues regarding coercive collective worship at schools here: www.secularism.org.uk/end-compulsory-worship/

We look forward to hearing from you.